Do you believe in God?

@MJA,

MJA wrote:

Regarding soul-exams and God:
I am, you are, all is, One.
Truly,

=
MJA

How come you dont realize such statements have no meaning?
If someone asks you where something is, and you answer "It can be anywhere" (Ever location is possible) the result is the same as if you answered "I dont know".

You arent seeing things from the pratic point of view: The fact that I can convince myself that this world is an ilusion doesnt solves the problem of that I am hungry Smile

Pusyphus wrote:

If that is the case, then what kind of a f@#ked up god would do something like that?

Can anybody tell me?

Why are you ranting about jews and gods? If they chose to believe a book, let they, if they keep pestering you to believe on it too, say you are the devil.

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@Majic,

Hello William,

Let me sincerely thank you for your gentle and appreciating words. And please permit me to leave it at that. For guys like me it requires quite some effort to keep down their Ego. Your posting makes me feel flattered and this causes my Ego to become excited and erect. I feel encouraged now to explain everything to everybody and to be the teacher of the world. And afterwards I wouldn't like myself a bit for the rest of the day, and you wouldn't like me either. Humility is one of the better virtues, both from the philosophical as from the religious point of view. Yet I wanted to say a few things about myself, because it's not only about me, it's about all "me's" in this matter. I am just another man.

-I am definitely NOT a "learned man", as commonly understood in the western world. I have a master's degree in philosophy but not a doctorate. I work at a university but only as an administrator (librarian), and not as a scholar. I had a good education and I believe a lot in being well educated and well read. But this does not make me an expert in any scientific field, except maybe my professional. My level of education is only important because it is also "me", it is an undeniable part of my personality. My knowledge may not be that admirable but it does deserve a little credit for the invested effort. It is the kind of admiration everybody else deserves, for being what he/she is or has obtained in life. In fact I'm convinced that the large majority of people deserves a lot more admiration than myself, and this for the most various reasons.

-Though not a learned man I am MAN (of the male gender). I brought with me in this Forum everything that I have and that I am as a human being. My virtues and my vices, my capacities and my limitations, my pride, my complexes and my grumpiness. I brought in my illness (Parkinson), and my love for my wife (she has MS). I brought in my doubts and my frustrations, my intelligence and my conscience, and I definitely brought in my passionate and irritable character. I often deceived myself and others and I have second thoughts now and then, I sometimes play games and I hunger too much for appreciation. Like many others around here I often confuse "being myself" with "being as I should be". I often judge prematurely, my thoughts are often lazy and shallow, and they are often biased or badly informed due to lack of attention or poor reading of the postings. I am often conceited, proud, arrogant but occasionally I say or do a few good things too. I am giving and receiving here and elsewhere, evolving and yet discovering how slow all personal evolution goes and how large the hindrances are for inner betterment. I am human and I think nothing human is strange to me. And then

There is God !

I think I have at least a slight idea of Him. I am naked in His eyes: no more games, no more tricks, no more lies. Away the deceptions and the empty words. There's no more amusement, there's no more world around; we're getting bloody serious here. Suddenly I'm on my deathbed, every choice is the truth now, nothing else matters. A human face maybe? Or a voice? How can I know? I was "deep" a few times in my life but I didn't die before. What did you say, young athe?st? Am I just the drama-king here? Yes, it is a drama and I mostly hide it for the neighbours. But I'm telling you there's a god-damned God in my house and I just seem unable to get rid of Him. And I made a few more texts about our difficult relationship. Not the kind that is worth reading. Please allow me my little divertissement.

P.S. I did read you postings, Majic, and if you allow me I will reply tomorrow or so. I first wanted to finish this little note for William.

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@Pythagorean,

But think about this: If a god could read us as a book, then he would not judge us as good or bad, because he would see clearly the reasons for our actions.

1 Reply

@manored,

manored wrote:

But think about this: If a god could read us as a book, then he would not judge us as good or bad, because he would see clearly the reasons for our actions.

Of Course. I believe you are right on the mark. Think of it not as a book but of us as a new extension of God himself as He understands what it is to be human. All it is to be human. The good, the bad and the ugly of a sentient existence. As we learn He learns until we become aware of our universal relationship and tap into the ageless infinity and evolve with it. Once we get through this death thing and realize it is just a part of life, then we will begin to truly understand our potential. Eternity is a long time. Our existence becomes in jeopardy if we become too much of a malignancy to that perfection and of course then we will cease to be and start all over again. IMO.
William

2 Replies

@William,

William wrote:

Of Course. I believe you are right on the mark. Think of it not as a book but of us as a new extension of God himself as He understands what it is to be human. All it is to be human. The good, the bad and the ugly of a sentient existence. As we learn He learns until we become aware of our universal relationship and tap into the ageless infinity and evolve with it. Once we get through this death thing and realize it is just a part of life, then we will begin to truly understand our potential. Eternity is a long time. Our existence becomes in jeopardy if we become too much of a malignancy to that perfection and of course then we will cease to be and start all over again. IMO.
William

Trying to approach this. For starters let me simplify this game to only two players: me and God. Me is everything we are and have as an individual, two letters replacing my whole previous posting, and "God" is the rest, three letters representing everything else, including me (?). So would we be some prodigal sons or lost sheep, our pride and ignorance keeping as away from our Father, from our Origin and Destiny? Again I feel hampered by not being a native english speaker, lacking an adequate vocabulary for this examination. A first question (to myself):

-Where is my dignity? Is "me" only a negative, essentially incomplete, a dark cristal lacking a piece, only healed and shining again by the acceptance of God? Or am I more? Am I the only player? It is not surprising that most people repeat each others path, being only human. Citing Majic:

[copy post 271]

Citing myself (again), in a "religious dispute" of a few years ago:

"... Objection, your honour! As all "religions", as all "truths", it has the potential to blind you, to make you over-enthousiastic, even fanatic. It may lead to sectarism and despise towards the non-believers, even if it's a religion of Love (catholicism is that also). Every worldview, including that Babylonian stuff, may be quite wrong (or right); there may be many other truths, there may be no thruth at all, and doubt has the merit of revealing that. So what is better: erring around as a seeker, lonely, empty, but sincere, or be fulfilled with the sacred joys of Certainty? C*** is so young, typically her age to stick to such a thing. Can she keep up with Ishtar her whole life, or will it fade away when she discovers other truths, when she reads other books (the world of books is the world of unending confusion and contradiction, I have some experience with those damned things). What will the future bring? Will she throw away that Babylonian stuff, or just stick to its essence, or will she "evolve" away from it, transcend it, forget it, be ashamed of it (in time)? Will religion become a "hobby", when she has kids and starts working with the tax-department? ... Enough of C***. I hesitate to embrace ANY view, let alone the more seductive ones. Vade retro, naked Ishtar, I have to hit the road! This is view 2". (From the Babylonian section of the Archives).

Now it must have appeared on several places in this thread (reading ALL postings may be very enlightening here :-) ): do "I" mean something and what do I have to do with "myself"? What is the value of my restlessness, of being a stubborn little man, of not giving in to some Grand Scheme of Things, claiming his rights as an individual instead of trying to efface what he is and what he thinks? Why do I keep thinking I have my "rights", especially my right to doubt? What's the worth of the individual and his ideosyncracies? William, you will say: you're part of a Plan. You will say: open up for God and you will find the Way Home. In fact you come from God and you will return to Him, whether you like it or not. But being there myself, as a potential, as opening myself up, as doubting and seeking, why do I feel myself more as when I had made that choice? Why do I think that sticking to myself is more than just stubborness and vanity? Why do I resist declaring myself an athe?st, or a pantheist, or a buddhist or whatever? Why do I feel I would not grow but greatly diminish somehow, loosing instead of winning, blinding myself for the Path instead of finding it? Why do I feel there must be some mistake in these "solutions", not just possible but even inevitable? Choosing means you can make the wrong choice, but then aren't all choices wrong and isn't that precisely what it means to be human? Do I have to be erring in doubt as well as erring in choice? My original text referred to being "on the edge"; but even then and there I was incomplete and I still am, and perhaps I will be for the rest of my life; I haven't made much "progress" since then. So choose or doubt? I feel bad in both. Maybe it's all just an egocentric feeling. I feel much better when I can help my wife.

This thread is both absolutely essential and endless. But it gathers evidence, and we may get somewhere, for ourselves and for us all. Or didn't we even start and has it all been said before, countless generations before us, asking and rediscovering the Eternal Questions? And getting No Answer? Or just giving the Old Answers? I often feel like Perkins, the marconist of the Titanic, trying to contact God by morse. No big difference with those who were already in the freezing water. All over the world people, suffer, seek and die, and we take it so much for granted. Could there by an agnosticist prayer? If there is a God forgive me My Lord, if there is no God a few words more about it will hardly matter. I hope this is relevant, I will think it all over. I have hardly started. Thanks for listening.

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@William,

William wrote:

Of Course. I believe you are right on the mark. Think of it not as a book but of us as a new extension of God himself as He understands what it is to be human. All it is to be human. The good, the bad and the ugly of a sentient existence. As we learn He learns until we become aware of our universal relationship and tap into the ageless infinity and evolve with it. Once we get through this death thing and realize it is just a part of life, then we will begin to truly understand our potential. Eternity is a long time. Our existence becomes in jeopardy if we become too much of a malignancy to that perfection and of course then we will cease to be and start all over again. IMO.
William

I believe thought that no paths lead backwards, they merely seen to from the human point of view, because those who fall will rise again stronger than before.

Scavenge for the perfect middle term of choice and doubt where you will fell confortable, it must exist.

2 Replies

@manored,

Catch, my offering,

(1) Why do I keep thinking I have my "rights", especialy my right to doubt? What's the worth of the individual and his ideosyncracies?[INDENT](1). Nothing, it it remains individualistic. We can't accomplish anything on our own other than that which will satisfy the ego. We need other people. The more the merrier. That is our burden. It's as though you want to scream, "What the hell are you people doing", except no one is listening. They don't trust you. They are thinking your motives a bit selfish. You are not being honest and trusting with them. They are used to that. Your search has gone far beyond their ability to comprehend. Actions speak louder than words. Your rights are no different than the rights of another. Perhaps of a different magnitude, but none the less equal as they compliment each other. Our impatience creates our doubts as we all what to know the truth and we want it on a silver platter. We want it now. It will come but it will be a group effort.
[/INDENT](2). William, you will say: you're part of a Plan. You will say: open up for God and you will find the Way Home. In fact you come from God and you will return to Him, whether you like it or not. [INDENT](2).Plan? What plan? There is no plan. There is only God (Universe) and the future we build together. We are only apart temporarily in that we have the perfection of being alone. Not very satisfying, but the truth. After all we are divine, just incomplete. In our separation we will learn in that loneliness what is missing so we can begin to truly live relying on others and what they have to offer coupled with our own contributions. That is synergy. That is harmony. That is God in motion. We don't return to him, He finds us. Contrary to popular belief, it is not God's desire of us to serve Him, for we do not know his needs. It is His desire to serve us. Once we clear the channel, he will make His presence known and guide our path. It's quite obvious we are not doing a very good job on our own.

[/INDENT](3). Why do I think that sticking to myself is more than just stubborness and vanity? Why do I resist declaring myself an athe?st, or a pantheist, or a buddhist or whatever? Why do I feel I would not grow but greatly diminish somehow, loosing instead of winning, blinding myself for the Path instead of finding it? [INDENT](3). Compulsion. You want the silver platter. You want the answers. Such is the dilemma of considering life so short. If you were an atheist, you would lose that which drives you so. You don't won't to give up. Frustrating, but in some way comforting. I know. As I said, been there, done that. I too don't have the answers, but I am assured they will come in their right time. That's the key. The mind is a beautiful thing, if we can just learn to leave it alone. We are truly an impatient lot. We strive to seek all that life has to offer and in that search we fail to live it.
[/INDENT](4). Choosing means you can make the wrong choice, but then aren't all choices wrong and isn't that precisely what it means to be human? [INDENT](4). Yes. Well, sorta. It's just when we are faced with a choice we are searching for the "better". What is better? Now we open up a entirely different bucket of worms. That is the first step off the path. Searching for "better". As in everything else, better will happen in it's own time and it will not be a matter of choice. Effort is our warning sign especially mentally when we burn the candle at both ends to find answers we don't need. In most cases if we do find answers we don't know what to do with them or apply them in all the wrong ways. Serendipity is what we want.
[/INDENT](5). All over the world people, suffer, seek and die, and we take it so much for granted. [INDENT](5). That's our punishment. To witness the horrors of man's greed, is far worse than death itself. Those who excuse it, have blinded the soul and what repercussions that carries, I don't care to know. Yes we do take a lot for granted. Of what use is a golden fountain if no water flows through it.
[/INDENT](6).I feel much better when I can help my wife.[INDENT](6). What a beautiful statement. Now imagine a world that understands what you just said and follows suit. Not so much as it relates to your situation but to the comfort that giving offers. I am not talking about charity in any stretch of the imagination. That's greeds answer that calms a raging conscience. This is not a give and take universe. It is a "giving" universe. It all about giving. If we give all we can to aid our fellow man, he will in turn give to us. It is a give/give situation. He will provide all you will ever need, cheerfully given "without effort"
[/INDENT].
Catch, I am not saying all that I have related is truth, it's what came out of my mind.Sometimes I can get out there. Please drill me if you need me to simplify it. I need that. I hope it rest well with you and offered a little comfort. Regardless where we reside in this world we are all the same. We do what we can with what we have to work with moment to moment. It's so much simpler that way.
William

1 Reply

@William,

I copied your answer to my own computer for quiet consideration. Now sitting in front of the screen I wondered how I could thank you? I could push the unpersonal button here but in this case I would feel that as largely insufficient. So let me say this. There are wonderful ghosts in that machine, and sometimes it does not feel like a crowd, it feels like One with many voices. I may be some Perkins after all, not having contact with God but with the best in Man. This compliment is your's, you can do with it as you please. See you later. C.

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@manored,

manored wrote:

I believe thought that no paths lead backwards, they merely seen to from the human point of view, because those who fall will rise again stronger than before.

Scavenge for the perfect middle term of choice and doubt where you will fell confortable, it must exist.

It's not so much paths lead backwards, it just relying on the past to justify the present is easy. The problem is the past contains not only our truth, but our mistakes too, and unless we can separate one from the other, we stifle forward momentum. The mistakes of the past, if we bring them forward, we don't improve, we stagnate. Scavenge is not necessarily a term I would use, but it does seem appropriate and it is a pity such a thought could emerge. What kind of life is that if we have to scavenge for it?
William

1 Reply

@Khethil,

Khethil wrote:

Say, MJA

Would you consider yourself a pantheist, then?

I'm Just One as nature is too.

=
MJA

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@William,

William wrote:

It's not so much paths lead backwards, it just relying on the past to justify the present is easy. The problem is the past contains not only our truth, but our mistakes too, and unless we can separate one from the other, we stifle forward momentum. The mistakes of the past, if we bring them forward, we don't improve, we stagnate. Scavenge is not necessarily a term I would use, but it does seem appropriate and it is a pity such a thought could emerge. What kind of life is that if we have to scavenge for it?
William

Oh, not life, just a belief he fells confortable to lead his life with. With the term, I mean that beliefs are like usefull objects buried under dirt, you have to dig into ourself to get one.

For example, the belief I found is the one that our concepts of life offer us: The purpose of human life is to not allow human life to be extinguished: keep the species going for as long as possible.

MJA wrote:

I'm Just One as nature is too.
=
MJA

I agree. But what is one?

2 Replies

@manored,

manored wrote:

Oh, not life, just a belief he fells confortable to lead his life with. With the term, I mean that beliefs are like usefull objects buried under dirt, you have to dig into ourself to get one.

For example, the belief I found is the one that our concepts of life offer us: The purpose of human life is to not allow human life to be extinguished: keep the species going for as long as possible.

I agree. But what is one?

I understand, but would it be so much nicer if they weren't hidden? You re looking for buried treasure. We can spend an entire life in this effort and still come up empty handed. You have all you need and it will appear as long as you don't interfere with it's emergence byseeking something that is "not" you. Unfortunately, that's how the world operates today. Everybody is looking for buried treasure and in doing so miss the real opportunities when they appear. Just take it easy and live as best you can in the moment focusing your attention on the now and when the time comes you will not miss that opportunity when it arrives.

As far a keeping the species going for as long a possible? No offense, but you have to be careful here, I think. IMO we have no control over that. As a matter of a fact, I think the more we try to control the quantity of life, we fail to enjoy the quality of it. There are all forms of greed and a greed for life can get you into just as much trouble, if not more. IMO.

William

1 Reply

@manored,

manored wrote:

Oh, not life, just a belief he fells confortable to lead his life with. With the term, I mean that beliefs are like usefull objects buried under dirt, you have to dig into ourself to get one.

For example, the belief I found is the one that our concepts of life offer us: The purpose of human life is to not allow human life to be extinguished: keep the species going for as long as possible.

I agree. But what is one?

Nature, the Universe, God, You and Me.
Equally of course or more simply One or the Same.

=
MJA

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@William,

William wrote:

I understand, but would it be so much nicer if they weren't hidden? You re looking for buried treasure. We can spend an entire life in this effort and still come up empty handed. You have all you need and it will appear as long as you don't interfere with it's emergence byseeking something that is "not" you. Unfortunately, that's how the world operates today. Everybody is looking for buried treasure and in doing so miss the real opportunities when they appear. Just take it easy and live as best you can in the moment focusing your attention on the now and when the time comes you will not miss that opportunity when it arrives.

As far a keeping the species going for as long a possible? No offense, but you have to be careful here, I think. IMO we have no control over that. As a matter of a fact, I think the more we try to control the quantity of life, we fail to enjoy the quality of it. There are all forms of greed and a greed for life can get you into just as much trouble, if not more. IMO.

William

Oh, Im not looking for a buried treasure, I found mine long ago, and those who spend their lifes quietly waiting theirs to show up have already found it too.

Actually, that kind of goal may seen greedy at first, but its quite the opposite. We dont need to have as many humans as possible, just small amounts living well and safe in as many places as possible. The psychologic health of the species is more important than numbers.

MJA wrote:

Nature, the Universe, God, You and Me.
Equally of course or more simply One or the Same.

=
MJA

And why?

1 Reply

@manored,

manored wrote:

And why?

Why not be equal, united, One, and free?

=
MJA

1 Reply

@MJA,

MJA wrote:

Why not be equal, united, One, and free?

=
MJA

Why be?

#Filling in space#

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@Majic,

Majic wrote:

Here is another way to discuss a belief in God. ... I discovered my purpose in life was connected to the rational concept of reincarnation. I was not a person with a Soul; I am Soul, living in a physical body, experiencing different life times in order to learn - to reach my maximum potential.
I began to realize the futility of two big conflicting myths presented by our culture. I'm not simply a biological being reacting to stimuli, nor am I placed on Earth by God to serve and worship him. Instead, I'm a part of a universal Spirit, as we all are. Collectively we are co-creators of the universe; individually we create our own reality by 'intent'.
Majic

Dear Majic,

I promised to read postings nr. 271 and 360 attentively. The potential athe?st in my agnosticism recognized the first 3/4 of your story and I had to agree completely. The evolution that you describe is even rather common; it has been the path of many a critical mind, living consciously and questioning the Old Solutions. So I wondered how it would all end? Would there be a satisfied materialistic atheist around, considering himself as a "biological being reacting to stimuli", and yet happy with that? I must say that I wasn't surprised when I read the ending. Majic, are you William, and vice virtue? Does not matter at all, but isn't it remarkable how many people replace the old religions by hm well... something religious again? Now of course there's a huge difference between the acceptance of traditional dogma's and the creation of your own free syncretic synthesis. But reincarnation? I am far from accepting that, even in the sense that you are presenting it. I said materialism. Why is it so difficult to be just pleased with this:

-The universe consists of a single substance called matter. It is filled with matter and with nothing else. Matter behaves in a certain way, according to the laws that are proper to it. These laws allow for organisation and for increasing complexity. At a certain moment this organization results in life, itself evolving into ever more complex forms. The modifying element being "evolution", continuous adaptation of the organism to the pressure of the environment. Eventually man arises and with him the (epi)phenomenon of the mind, being just another biological function, an answer to outside pressures. Individual man enters the world, does a few things and then dies, matter to matter, dust to dust. There's nothing more here, there's nothing less. That's it.

Now this is only another view, but I know it's the choice of many people, though not all give such a schematic simplification of it. I am open for anything and I can even say I "long" for God, but I'm also open for the idea that this can lead to illusion and error. There are many kinds of materialists and many were realising the deep beauty and wonder of "organized matter", take the machine called man or nature as a whole. Why do we need more than that display? Why do we need (a) God, or at least a "soul"? Why not be satisfied with the many splendours of matter, accepting ourselves as matter among matter? Is our longing for God only an unnecessary torment? Some burden from the past? Some lack of modesty or some freudian desire for moms breast? Is the search for God ultimately foolish instead of wise? I'll have to work on that for myself.

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@Pythagorean,

I believe its because the mind does not fell as something that is chained down to matter. I, for one, dont fell it so, for the following reasons:

1. If mind is chained down to matter, and neurons are changing all the time, how come we do not fell our mind changing along with it?
2. As neurons are changing all the time, werent we supposed to have "died" already while our biologic body keept moving forward? Because where is the borderline difference between small neurologic changes, severe brain damage and dead?
3. How can the mind end if we cannot perceive anything beyond its end?
4. As the universe is infinite and on it everthing is happening, doesnt this means than an anomaly will happen at some point wich will force our minds back into existence somehow?

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@Pythagorean,

Pythagorean wrote:

Please vote above.

Please tell me if you believe in God or don't believe.

Perhaps you could give some explanation or reason for your position?

Thank you
--Pythagorean

Are you a zero or a one? To posit a belief or negate one requires an acknowldgement that both exist within a binary framework similiar to the strife of Heraclitus. If a satellite can transmit photos to Earth using a binary code then perhaps synthesizing what divides or unites your question might be found by what zero or one you choose to be.

1 Reply

@KMP,

An atheist and a theist are two of the same. Both have constructed a notion of God, the only difference being one accepts and one denounces. An atheist states it does not believe in the notion of God it's constructed. Similarly, a theist states it does believe in the notion of God it's constructed. If an atheist didn't have a notion of God constructed, there would be nothing to denounce. If a theist didn't have a notion of God constructed, there would be nothing to accept. Neither of these labels are all-inclusive as not every consciousness knows of every notion of "God" that has been, is, or will be. That is, an atheist doesn't denounce every notion of "God", as it's not humanly possible to know. Likewise, a theist doesn't accept every notion of "God", as it's not humanly possible to know. Essentially, we are applying categorization to a notional construct, a construct that varies, sometimes wildly, between cultures.

Therefore, the question, "Do you believe in God?" is too overarching, and really doesn't answer much. It must be placed in the context with which the consciousness speaks, lest it be confused with anything. We must remember that "God" is a notion. Logically, contemplating the existence of a "Goblin" should be no different than the contemplation of "God", but because of the mystical/expansive/profound stigma attached, a majority approach the notion of "God" with intense emotion. We must not let our emotion cloud our better judgement, and begin approaching things at face value, rather than the value applied through interpretation. Interpret after the fact, not before.

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