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Is Greece going to set off the long feared next wave of the Great Recession?

 
 
Francis
 
  1  
Reply Thu 29 Apr, 2010 04:02 pm
Spendi wrote:
It would not be going against European tradition for the movers and shakers to buy Greek bonds paying 15.5% and then bail them out with taxpayer's money and, when the dust settles and the bonds return to 3 or 4%, cash in a 300% profit and stick it in a Swiss bank.

This is an example of "real-politics" too and that's the way it works...
0 Replies
 
Ionus
 
  1  
Reply Thu 29 Apr, 2010 04:57 pm
@georgeob1,
Quote:
You are WEFT.
Clever. Because I disagree with you on this I am wrong every ******* time ? Your bigotry and love of money says a lot about your personality.
Quote:
What sexual attraction I have enjoyed has very little to do with money,
You are arguing against psychological theory. You need to read more about the subject. Why do you think people like money ? So they can practice counting it ?
Quote:
rather adventure, excitement and a real sense of purpose, flying combat aircraft in the Navy
Then no doubt you would be aware of one of the main selection points for combat pilots is their narcissism and arrogance. The sort of people who cant stand losing and are aggressive towards others. Now you are in business, and you cant see why someone else deserves YOUR money. What about all those peasants walking on YOUR footpaths, driving on YOUR roads, etc....that is your tax money. What about public schools...if they cant afford an education then why should you have to pay ? They will sink the boat people !!!!!!
Quote:
Your essay projects a very sad and limited view of the possibilities in life
Your essay projects someone who is willing to watch people die from curable disease......after all it is their fault if they get sick....why should you contribute to the survival of pond scum....you think money is more important and I feel sorry for you....you are just plain sad.

“Keep, ancient lands, your storied pomp!” cries she
with silent lips. “Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!”

But when they are here, even if they are 5th generation, **** 'em !!
0 Replies
 
Ionus
 
  0  
Reply Thu 29 Apr, 2010 05:01 pm
@Francis,
Quote:
A few weeks ago it was me he was addressing with this same stuff...
So tell me, what do you think money is ? Or is my point of view (based on facts by the way) not to be examined because there are two of you in the world ?

Quote:
Ionus seems to have a problem with sexual achievements of other men.
Do you really think humping the neighbours dog is an achievement ? How many offspring have you produced ? You do know sex is about reproduction, right ?
Ionus
 
  0  
Reply Thu 29 Apr, 2010 05:06 pm
@Francis,
Quote:
it's called "real-politics".
You mean making sure there arent too many snouts in the trough, feathering your own nest, looking out for number one, that kind of thing ?

Quote:
As so, this crisis will be resolved shortly, whatever means it requires.
Your blind faith is not reassuring.

Quote:
Obviously, the prophets of doomsday will be again looking for the next episode....
Are you saying depression/recession is impossible ??
spendius
 
  0  
Reply Thu 29 Apr, 2010 05:07 pm
@Ionus,
Quote:
You do know sex is about reproduction, right ?


Not today mate. Today it's about male chauvinist pigs shooting their load up women with as little inconvenience as science can make it.
0 Replies
 
Francis
 
  1  
Reply Thu 29 Apr, 2010 05:08 pm
@Ionus,
What leads you to think that I should feel compelled to answer your questions?
0 Replies
 
Francis
 
  1  
Reply Thu 29 Apr, 2010 05:09 pm
@Ionus,
Perfect example of thinking with your guts..
Francis
 
  1  
Reply Thu 29 Apr, 2010 05:11 pm
Spendi wrote:

Ionus wrote:
You do know sex is about reproduction, right ?



Not today mate. Today it's about male chauvinist pigs shooting their load up women with as little inconvenience as science can make it.


I feel for you both..
Ionus
 
  1  
Reply Thu 29 Apr, 2010 05:16 pm
@Francis,
Quote:
I feel for you both..
No you dont. You feel for your own crutch and constantly using people has produced a backlash in your mind to the point where you are "making love" or are just like a bee going from flower to flower....Ohhh...isnt that lovely...You have focused in on one aspect of life and have over emphasised it. Now you justify it. It is ONLY sex...nothing important...no-one ever got hurt by it, right ??
0 Replies
 
Ionus
 
  1  
Reply Thu 29 Apr, 2010 05:18 pm
@Francis,
Quote:
Perfect example of thinking with your guts..
You mean like sex, money, power...all the things politicians shun.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Thu 29 Apr, 2010 05:34 pm
@Francis,
Quote:
I feel for you both..


Yeah--it was a bit tough I'll admit.
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Apr, 2010 03:29 pm
@spendius,
Quote:
BlackRock Buys Spanish Bonds on ‘Ridiculous’ Spreads
By Bo Nielsen

Jan. 26 (Bloomberg) -- BlackRock Inc., the biggest money manager traded in the U.S., said it started buying Greek, Spanish and Italian government bonds after yield spreads widened to the most in a decade.

Prices now reflect odds of between 10 percent and 20 percent that the euro-region will disintegrate following a series of credit downgrades from Standard & Poor’s this month, according to BlackRock. The difference in yields, or spreads, between the three nation’s 10-year bonds and those of benchmark German securities was close to the widest today since the euro’s debut in 1999.

“You have got to ask yourself at what point this becomes ridiculous,” Scott Thiel, head of European fixed income in London at BlackRock, which manages $1.3 trillion, said in an interview Jan. 23. “That’s too high if you step back and take a deep breath. We’ve begun to add back exposure” of these bonds.

The spread between German 10-year bunds and comparable Greek bonds ballooned to 297 points last week, before narrowing to 280 basis points today. The equivalent on Spanish securities widened to 123 points on Jan. 21, two days after the nation lost its AAA rating at S&P. The rating company also lowered Portugal’s and Greece’s classifications one step.

The yield on Greek 10-year government bonds averaged 48 basis points more than the German bund since the euro’s debut. The spread to Spanish bonds averaged 15 basis points. For Italy, the average difference was 30 basis points, compared with 152 basis points today.

Investor Opportunities

The downgrades created opportunities for investors, said Thiel. While spreads may widen further before they narrow, markets have exaggerated the likelihood that the cost of bank bailouts and economic stimulus packages will force some countries to abandon the euro, he said.

“It’s very unlikely this will happen,” Thiel said.

The bond yields of some European nations surged as governments planned to sell record amounts of debt in 2009 to revive economies battered by the global recession.

The 11 biggest economies in the euro region will increase government debt issuance this year by about 26 percent to 1.05 trillion euros ($1.38 trillion) from 830 billion euros in 2008, London-based Riccardo Barbieri-Hermitte, head of European rates strategy at Bank of America Corp., wrote in a report last month.

‘Tremendous Value’

“People are piling into this trade,” said Niels From, chief analyst in Copenhagen at Nordea Bank AB, the biggest Nordic bank by market value. “It’s a highway you don’t want to step onto or you’ll get run over. The spreads look excessive from a fundamental perspective but they’ll likely widen from here before they narrow again.”

BlackRock is among a group of investors including ING Groep NV and Goldman Sachs Group Inc. that are betting the market is exaggerating the odds of a euro-region breakup.

ING, the biggest Dutch financial-services company, said on Jan. 22 that Spanish, Irish and Greek bonds were “outright cheap.” Goldman Sachs, based in New York, advised clients on Jan. 15 to buy Italian 10-year bonds, targeting the spread to the bund of 100 basis points from the current 152 basis points.

Investors are betting the euro region will struggle to contain budget deficits that exceed the 3 percent limit outlined in the Stability and Growth Pact. Fiscal deficits will reach 11 percent in Ireland, 6.2 percent in Spain and 3.8 percent in Greece this year, according to ING.

Some euro-region members now pay more to borrow than emerging markets such as Poland and the Czech Republic. The spread between a Czech 10-year sovereign note and the German bund was 78 basis points, less than Italy, Spain, Greece, Portugal, Belgium and Ireland. The Czech Republic is rated A at S&P, and Poland A-.

“In hindsight these spreads will hold tremendous value,” said Amsterdam-based Padhraic Garvey, head of investment-grade debt strategy at ING. “The market seems keen to price in the worst-case scenario.”

To contact the reporters on this story: Bo Nielsen in Copenhagen at [email protected]

0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Sun 2 May, 2010 05:14 pm
It appears that a Greek bailout is all but a settled thing. Probably necessary to contain a dangerous and spreading sovereign debt crisis in the EU, and to save the German & French banks that together hold about 2/3rds of the outstanding Greek bonds. The austerity measures "imposed on" the Greeks include "raising" the retirement age for women to 65 and deleting the extra paychecks for the ficticious "13th and 14th" months for some government employees and pensioners. Whether this will be accepted by harder working Germans or in Greece by the government labor unions now fomenting the unrest or whether it will lead the Greeks to reduce the widespread graft and corruption that infects the operations of their government - all remaiun to be seen.

I suspect that the aftermath will involve some discussion in Europe about their collective failure to either enforce or live up to the provisions of their now largely defunct financial stability pact, and what to do about it going forward. It will also be interesting to observe what effect all this might have on the continuing momentum to strengthen the EU governing apparatus after the Lisbon Treaty. The continuing relatively slow economic growth that accompanies the European model social welfare system and the chronic high public debt that infests the southern tier of EU nations appear likely to significantly increase national divisions within the EU.

I'm most interested in what effect all this might have on the continuing political and economic debate in the United States. The current administration appears infatuated with the European model and determined to inflict it on us whatever may be the cost. There will likely be some major setbacks for it in the Fall elections, though I don't believe the Republicans will gain enough to take control of the Congress. Perhaps the next major development for us will be the growing financial crises among state governments, and the political consequences that follow. Let us all hope that more states like New Jersey seriously take on the public employees and teachers unions that in many cases control the state legislatures, slash the bloated bureaucracies and further limit the burden of the public sector on their economies.
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Sun 2 May, 2010 05:29 pm
@georgeob1,
Quote:
Let us all hope that more states like New Jersey seriously take on the public employees and teachers unions that in many cases control the state legislatures, slash the bloated bureaucracies and further limit the burden of the public sector on their economies.


Ye Gods George.
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Sun 2 May, 2010 05:30 pm
@georgeob1,
Quote:
It appears that a Greek bailout is all but a settled thing
the government agreeing to a plan does not make for a sustainable plan. It remains to me seen if the people will support it. Last I herd less than 20% of greeks support taking any money from the IMF. This is greece, which has a long history of not honoring its obligations, and the scene of several major riots over the last few years.
0 Replies
 
Francis
 
  2  
Reply Sun 2 May, 2010 06:10 pm
OB George wrote:
It appears that a Greek bailout is all but a settled thing.

George, my friend, when can you accept that your views of the EU don't match the reality?
Your point is obviously biased and I'm sad to observe that it seems to stem only from your conservative allegiances.

and wrote:
The continuing relatively slow economic growth that accompanies the European model social welfare system...

The inference that the two are tied is a fable that the conservatives are pleased to spread.
Other than that, one should ask if a strong economic growth is something to focus on given the damaging collateral effects.

and wrote:
The current administration appears infatuated with the European model and determined to inflict it on us whatever may be the cost.

You know, this administration is no dumber than the previous one, whatever you think.
Then, maybe this social model is not as dumber as it appears to be.
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Sun 2 May, 2010 07:34 pm
@Francis,
Francis wrote:

OB George wrote:
It appears that a Greek bailout is all but a settled thing.

George, my friend, when can you accept that your views of the EU don't match the reality?
Your point is obviously biased and I'm sad to observe that it seems to stem only from your conservative allegiances.


I believe the reality of relatively slow economic growth rates and growing public debt, among many (not all) EU nations is beyond doubt - an observable objective fact, that I doubt you would dispute.

Whether the system is sustainable is probably arguable from an economic point of view - perhaps indeed a matter of opinion. (The idea of a stable equilibrium of a slow-growth economy with a high level of public service and taxation, and near zero population growth is indeed attractive.) However, when one also considers the demographic profiles, of the most affected nations, and the continuing trends they reveal, together with the population pressures around Europe, I believe the conclusion that it cannot be sustained becomes inescapable. I don't take any pleasure in saying that or wish for to any setbacks for Europe. However, that is my considered opinion, and it is not the result of any a priori political allegiances.
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Sun 2 May, 2010 08:01 pm
Quote:
But there are serious questions about whether the deep cuts in salaries and benefits the agreement calls for are politically sustainable over time, even as deflation will make it impossible for Greece to grow its way out of debt.

There is a consensus that the Greek economy is broken and needs major structural reform, and the deal done on Sunday is intended to give Athens a couple of years of breathing room to change the fundamental pattern of Greek behavior.

The government is now committed to whack back the public sector, including pensions and popular social benefits; to raise consumption taxes to record highs; and to promote tax reform, in an effort to shrink the enormous black market, reduce tax evasion and increase government receipts.

Some influential economists, however, fear that such harsh measures risk killing the patient,
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/03/world/europe/03austerity.html?hp

it will not kill the patient because greece is not going to commit suicide. This deal likely is politically unrealistic, and only kicks the can down the road. Without an EU zone bubble to dig Greece out they are going to default, and leave the Eurozone. But they are going to take up to $140 billion in handouts before they do.
0 Replies
 
Francis
 
  1  
Reply Sun 2 May, 2010 08:09 pm
HE wrote:
Without an EU zone bubble to dig Greece out they are going to default, and leave the Eurozone.

Geez! As if you knew what you are talking about..

Wanna be hired as an expert in Greek economic recovery?
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Sun 2 May, 2010 08:23 pm
@Francis,
Quote:
Geez! As if you knew what you are talking about..
you can be either for or against, but insulting the speaker only makes you look childish.

If I were an idiot you could make fast work of me...so what is stopping you?
 

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