Is Greece going to set off the long feared next wave of the Great Recession?

I think the argument that works on merkel is

I am hoping that with in 10 days I see Putin on a stage giving Europe and the Americans a lecture on morals, and sound management, And that since that same crowd that has been inflicting pain on the Greeks for these last 5 years refuse to stop and refuse to help fix Greece then Russia with China's help will step in to do the required work.

Just read that the new application for a European Stability Mechanism loan has been made by Athens and handed in a few minutes ago.


Live feed.....
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/11725248/Greece-news-live-Tsipras-demands-Greece-be-given-a-way-out-after-Europeans-prepare-for-four-days-to-save-the-euro.html

Let's see what happens in a few days. In the meantime, Hollande has learned to make Merkel's typical hand gestures. Soon they'll be in sync

What did you think of the letter Walter?

I read it and found it to be specious and highly selective in reporting the facts. Moreover the authors completely ignored the direct effects of their proposals on others and the likelihood that the Greek government would use the benefit wisely.

It's all those secret messages she keeps sending him...

Interesting piece, whilst we wait for news from the EMU.....

SEPTEMBER 2014
An Economic Hit Man Speaks Out: John Perkins on How Greece Has Fallen Victim to "Economic Hit Men"


John Perkins, author of Confessions of an Economic Hit Man, discusses how Greece and other eurozone countries have become the new victims of "economic hit men."

John Perkins is no stranger to making confessions. His well-known book, Confessions of an Economic Hit Man, revealed how international organizations such as the International Monetary Fund (IMF) and the World Bank, while publicly professing to "save" suffering countries and economies, instead pull a bait-and-switch on their governments: promising startling growth, gleaming new infrastructure projects and a future of economic prosperity - all of which would occur if those countries borrow huge loans from those organizations. Far from achieving runaway economic growth and success, however, these countries instead fall victim to a crippling and unsustainable debt burden.

That's where the "economic hit men" come in: seemingly ordinary men, with ordinary backgrounds, who travel to these countries and impose the harsh austerity policies prescribed by the IMF and World Bank as "solutions" to the economic hardship they are now experiencing. Men like Perkins were trained to squeeze every last drop of wealth and resources from these sputtering economies, and continue to do so to this day. In this interview, which aired on Dialogos Radio, Perkins talks about how Greece and the eurozone have become the new victims of such "economic hit men."



Samples.......

Michael Nevradakis: In your book, you write about how you were, for many years, a so-called "economic hit man." Who are these economic hit men, and what do they do?

John Perkins: Essentially, my job was to identify countries that had resources that our corporations want, and that could be things like oil - or it could be markets - it could be transportation systems. There're so many different things. Once we identified these countries, we arranged huge loans to them, but the money would never actually go to the countries; instead it would go to our own corporations to build infrastructure projects in those countries, things like power plants and highways that benefitted a few wealthy people as well as our own corporations, but not the majority of people who couldn't afford to buy into these things, and yet they were left holding a huge debt, very much like what Greece has today, a phenomenal debt.
And once [they were] bound by that debt, we would go back, usually in the form of the IMF - and in the case of Greece today, it's the IMF and the EU [European Union] - and make tremendous demands on the country: increase taxes, cut back on spending, sell public sector utilities to private companies, things like power companies and water systems, transportation systems, privatize those, and basically become a slave to us, to the corporations, to the IMF, in your case to the EU, and basically, organizations like the World Bank, the IMF, the EU, are tools of the big corporations, what I call the "corporatocracy."




Later.......

What happens once these countries that are targeted are indebted? How do these major powers, these economic hit men, these international organizations come back and get their "pound of flesh," if you will, from the countries that are heavily in debt?

By insisting that the countries adopt policies that will sell their publicly owned utility companies, water and sewage systems, maybe schools, transportation systems, even jails, to the big corporations. Privatize, privatize. Allow us to build military bases on their soil. Many things can be done, but basically, they become servants to what I call the corporatocracy. You have to remember that today we have a global empire, and it's not an American empire. It's not a national empire. It doesn't help the American people very much. It's a corporate empire, and the big corporations rule. They control the politics of the United States, and to a large degree they control a great deal of the policies of countries like China, around the world.



Full interview......
http://www.truth-out.org/news/item/26112-an-economic-hit-man-speaks-out-john-perkins-on-how-greece-has-fallen-victim-to-economic-hit-men

Obviously I'm not left enough to join all those who point with their finger at Merkel and Germany. (And I agree: the authors were really highly selective in reporting the facts.)





I do think, however, that we (Europe) are obliged to help Greece (and the rip cord should have been pulled years ago).

Your figures there tend to support the article I pasted above, Walt.

Last year (or was it the year before?) I had the misfortune of having the Bilderberg meeting take place almost at the end of my garden.
If you don't know about Bilderberg, it's worth a bit of research.

Almost the entire police force of South Eastern England, or so it seemed, camped in the nearby rugby fields so that 24 hour protection could be provided.
I seriously couldn't enter my nearby park each day without armed police launching themselves at me and asking my reason for being there.

I always took this "Corporatcracy" talk as conspiracy bullshite, but after having these real sinister billionaires converging in the hotel nearby, I can honestly say that my eyes were opened.

Not one of them elected. Every single one of them at least a multi multi millionaire. About the poorest one there was Mandelson.

I read in the paper (I'd never heard of Bilderberg up until then) that these monkeys meet up each year, and "plan global strategies".

Two or three of these guys could have cleared Greece's debt with their spare change.

This year they are meeting between 11-14 June 2015 in Telfs-Buchen, Austria.

It would seem that Voldemort is alive and well.


Last year's meeting.....and protests....
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-22806891

My impression is the ECB, IMF and EU leaders were willing to help, but they also wanted some reform of pension payments; privatization of a fairly bloated government ownership of infrastructure; liberalization of labor law and like measures to stimulate badly needed economic growth. Theese issues had been part of an ongoing dialogue for a long time and, by conventional economic analysis, are indeed badly needed if Greece is to grow economically. Little proigrass had been made and when they came on the scene Syriza refused to pursue them. There's no evidence yet indicating that they have changes any of that.

Do you believe Europeans are obliged to provide economic subsidies even in these circumstassnces?

"privatization of a fairly bloated government ownership of infrastructure"


The Economic hitmen strike again. See above.

Ehem ... yes, I do.

"Bildenberg" had always been a kind of conspiracy-topic of the left, not untrue, if you remember the periods of the leadership of Prince Bernhard and Alec Douglas-Home.

There doesn't appear to be any synthesis forming between the two opposing interpretations of events, either in the EU or within Greece. Are the Greeks the "victims" of an EU conspiracy to screw them (or of "economic hitmen" as Lordy puts it), or, alternatively are they the authors of their own problem and beyond real help until they take some respoinsibility for their situation.

I believe the latter interprertation is the more accurate of the two. I also recognize that the EU faces some bad side effects, no matter what they do. I believe the effects of additional aid to Greece in the absence of significant new constructive measires to deal with their situation would be far worse for the EU than the alternative, and so far that appears to be the majority view within the union.

It's called leading by example. But, I am not so foolish to believe anyone will follow my thinking. Rather, I find it satisfying to let anyone that might be smug enough to think that his/her thinking is objective truth, to realize that some might hear a different drummer, so to speak.

I guess I am a Devil's Advocate, and I like to see some opinions not canonized. I feel I am doing a service for those that would follow someone, even if that someone has "clay feet." Too often, in my opinion, a thread becomes a mutual admiration society.

Besides all argumentation - there are some really bad side effects, e.g. for the refugees/asylum seekers. (Tourist are already helping them, e.g. on Lesbos as a friend, who's holidaying there, just told me.)

Greece is in Europe? Even for the hundreds of years that Christianity was outlawed under Islam? Is Turkey in Europe? Is Russia in Europe?

Perhaps, based on their Eastern Orthodoxy they are not as European as the Catholics and Protestants in other parts of Europe. If Greece goes it alone, wouldn't one think they would get friendly with that other country that practices Eastern Orthodoxy: Russia?

You don't think that Greece knows they are holding an Ace up their sleeve?

Well not this one, Foofie - it seems we all have different opinions and
admiration threads are a thing of the past, we feud way too much actually,
but nice sentiments.

I am sooooo disappointed with the European radical left and in particular by Tsipras and Syriza, who would rather accuse and tar the very people who lend them billions after billions, instead of doing the FUCKIN REVOLUTION that they should be doing: tax the orthodox church or just take over all their possessions, tax the filthy rich in Greece, control capital flows...

That's what I expect from a decent leftist government faced with such a crisis: reform, if not downright revolution. Instead those clowns are content to beat their nationalist drum at the expenses of their creditors. Germany, what a splendid boogeyman! And the rest of the ultra-left in Europe claps hands when anti-German nationalist bullshit gets peddled in the press, as an excuse for not making any change in a deeply unequal and corrupt Greek economic system???

Is that what the European radical left is all about? Petty nationalism, corruption, the protection of the church and of the filthy rich? Really? No wonder Marine Le Pen supports the present Greek government without any second thought.

Greece's largest export is oil and not much else: they're economy is not able to survive just on oil export and tourism. Giving Greece more money is not the solution to their problems until such time when their economy produces more goods and services that they can export. It's a long term problem.