Rezman
 
Reply Fri 31 Oct, 2003 12:09 pm
Please read the article before clicking the link to see who wrote it, and discuss.

Quote:
October 30, 2003, 7:26 a.m.
Walk of Shame
Bill Clinton's party.



"There is nothing this man won't do. He is immune to shame. Move past all the nice posturing and get really down in there in him, you find absolutely nothing . . . nothing but an appetite." ?- Jesse Jackson on Bill Clinton, 1992

Rarely has the intellectual rot of liberalism been more evident. Both at home and abroad, the honorable tradition of liberalism ?- and there is one ?- has been hollowed out by its own appetite for power and vengeance. Indeed, it is exceedingly difficult to see how liberalism, at the national level, stands for anything but appetite ?- undirected, inarticulate, unprincipled, ravenous appetite. Truly it has become Bill Clinton's party.

Consider two stories of demonstrably unequal importance, which nonetheless have fascinated the chattering classes: The $20 billion request for Iraqi reconstruction, and the effort underway to create a successful liberal think tank.

Let's start with the more important story. Today the "principled" position of the Democratic party's leaders is to cavil and equivocate about the "need" to rebuild Iraq. I use quotation marks around "need" not because the necessity to get the job done isn't there, but because America's leading political liberals treat the very idea that we have to fix Iraq with winks and smirks.

Whether the war was necessary or not, reasonable people of all political persuasions outside the arena of partisan politics understand that the task of reconstructing Iraq is immensely necessary.

If the United States were to "bring the boys home" now, Iraq would implode, America would be seen as not merely a bully (which is not always bad, but rarely good) but also a bully with a glass jaw ?- which, as every thinking person must understand, would be an invitation to disaster of precisely the sort that left the World Trade Center in ruins.

Of course, except for the odd character actors at the left end of the screen in the Democratic presidential debates, the leading candidates do not say they are in favor of immediate withdrawal. Rather, they spew clouds of verbiage about why we need to have a "plan" and insist that until we have a "plan" we should not spend money on Iraq. Senators John Kerry and John Edwards, both of whom voted for the war, voted against spending any money on Iraq's reconstruction because "we don't have a plan" or because we "need a real plan." Wesley Clark and Howard Dean ?- the Democratic frontrunners ?- also say that they would have voted against the reconstruction funds. Dean is consistent ?- and consistently wrong ?- in that his position has always been "if Bush is for it, I'm against it." Clark, on the other hand, is not only inconsistent on the question whether he supports Bush, but it seems that this inconsistency is his only reliable trait. .
Even the noble exceptions of Gephardt and Lieberman ?- who voted for the reconstruction funds ?- often couch their answers in terms that show they want to be seen as close allies of the naysayers.

Of course, the administration does have a plan. And central to that plan is, well, spending money to rebuild Iraq. The Democrats make it sound like all the U.S. Army is doing in Iraq is having one giant-sized Chinese fire drill every day. One can just imagine John Kerry going to the local garage:

Kerry: I won't pay you to fix my car until you have a plan.
Mechanic: Um, I do have a plan: You pay me. I replace the engine I just took out. Your car works. That's the plan.
Kerry:How can you say you have a plan? Look at the terrible shape my car is in. It's worse than before; there isn't even an engine.
Mechanic: You're an idiot.
In the current New Republic, Peter Beinart brilliantly excoriates Kerry and others for such arrogant and willful fecklessness, which, he argues, is the byproduct of mindless partisanship as well as the rising influence of political consultants. All of the top Democratic consultants have run polls, convened focus groups, disemboweled goats ?- and done whatever else constitutes the science of political augury these days ?- and concluded that Democratic candidates must draw "clear distinctions" between them and Bush. So, since Bush favors the reconstruction of Iraq ?- which means, as a practical matter, reluctantly favoring the expenditure of blood and treasure ?- the Democrats must be against it. By this logic, John Edwards should embrace Satan and start drinking heavily, since Bush is a born-again Christian and a teetotaler.

I'm only marginally kidding. For years, or decades, or even a century, we've been hearing a host of propositions from liberals. Crime and violence are symptoms of poverty. The United States must do more than simply drop bombs; it must alleviate the "root causes" of terrorism, hopelessness, etc. America must be internationally oriented, looking to engage the world and help the unfortunate. It is in America's vital interests to come to the aid of the downtrodden. And, most recently and relevantly, America must get into the business of nation building.

All of these principles have been defenestrated by a party leadership who no longer believe what, during the Clinton years, it constantly claimed to believe: that partisanship should end at the water's edge. Instead, even as we are fighting a guerilla war where the enemy defines victory not in military terms but in its ability to weaken American resolve at home, Democrats are crassly undermining the safety of our troops, the credibility of our nation, and the integrity of their own political philosophy. Every single good thing about liberalism in foreign policy would have the Democrats seeking more money for Iraq. Liberals should be the ones demanding that we send more teachers, more doctors, more librarians, and more troops to protect them. They should be standing on the tarmac helping to load another shipment of soft-ice-cream machines and ping-pong tables bound for Fallujah, Tikrit, and Basra.

And Democratic support for reconstruction isn't required by liberal altruism alone; the good of the both the country and the liberal cause demand it as well. The only place where I think Beinart is wrong in his column is in his overzealous effort to be bipartisan in his criticisms. He asserts that Republicans opposed nation building in Haiti simply out of anti-Clinton pique. No doubt such animus played a role. But many conservatives simply did not believe that nation building in Haiti was anything more than what Charles Krauthammer calls "foreign policy as social work." You simply cannot say the same thing about nation building (or state building) in Iraq. There are vital American interests at stake in the effort to make Iraq a stable, peaceful, and prosperous democracy. Offsetting our reliance on Saudi Arabia, advancing the spread of democracy and prosperity in a historically dangerous region, and ?- of course ?- quashing the threat of fanatical Islamic terrorism are all on the line here. Obviously these goals have altruistic components, but they can all be justified through hardheaded realism as well (which simply was not the case with Haiti).

But these Democrats want none of it. They see each setback in Iraq as a political opportunity to question whether we should be there at all. Not only do they send a message of weakening American resolve at precisely the wrong moment, not only do they abandon their historical principles, but they underscore their most enduring political handicap ?- the impression that Democrats are unserious on foreign policy. They are left with no principle to stand on, no plan of their own to promulgate, and no credibility to trade with. In short, they have ritualistically shorn themselves of everything but animus and appetite. Shame on them.


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Type: Discussion • Score: 3 • Views: 3,347 • Replies: 29
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ebrown p
 
  1  
Reply Fri 31 Oct, 2003 12:18 pm
I have only one question....

"Are we better off now than we were four years ago?"
0 Replies
 
edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Fri 31 Oct, 2003 12:19 pm
So are you here to flame or interact?
0 Replies
 
Rezman
 
  1  
Reply Fri 31 Oct, 2003 12:22 pm
edgarblythe wrote:
So are you here to flame or interact?


I posted this to open a discussion on politics. If you don't feel like commenting on the article, nobody is keeping you here.
0 Replies
 
Rezman
 
  1  
Reply Fri 31 Oct, 2003 12:24 pm
ebrown_p wrote:
I have only one question....

"Are we better off now than we were four years ago?"


I know I am. I already had the world's greatest wife - now I have the world's greatest son, too. And I'm making twice as much money and have a huge house that's gone up in value by $45k since last year. Yes. Yes I am.
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Fri 31 Oct, 2003 12:32 pm
ebrown_p wrote:
I have only one question....

"Are we better off now than we were four years ago?"


Is that really a fair question?

9/11 changed a lot of things and you can't really ask that question anymore. Obviously we are not. The question you need to ask is "What other administration would you want in office during the recent crisis that has struck America?" My answer: none.

edgarblythe wrote:
So are you here to flame or interact?


It seems he is interacting and YOU are flaming.
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Fri 31 Oct, 2003 12:40 pm
Rezman wrote:
ebrown_p wrote:
I have only one question....

"Are we better off now than we were four years ago?"


I know I am. I already had the world's greatest wife - now I have the world's greatest son, too. And I'm making twice as much money and have a huge house that's gone up in value by $45k since last year. Yes. Yes I am.


I have to take exception to this as I already have the world's greatest wife and son as well as the world's greatest daughter, dog, and shed.
0 Replies
 
ebrown p
 
  1  
Reply Fri 31 Oct, 2003 12:41 pm
That's very nice Rez. I am happy for your good fortune.

But, be aware that there are many Americans who have lost jobs. More than ever are struggling without health care.

There are Americans who are being jailed without legal counsel. There are others who can now be spied on by their government.

There are young kids losing their life almost daily fighting in Iraq. There are thousands of American soldiers spending months and months away from their families only to find out that when they come home they not being support by their government (in terms of pay or health care).

There are millions of American's who are very worried about the huge deficit and the debts that someday our children will have to pay off.

Not one of these things were true under Clinton.

I am happy that you are doing well enough to allow such a blissful partisan apathy.
0 Replies
 
Tartarin
 
  1  
Reply Fri 31 Oct, 2003 12:42 pm
I clicked first, read the opener, and realized we are once again being offered the thoughts of a rightwinger with particularly itchy hemorrhoids. Advise thoughtful contributors to avoid. That said:

Welcome, Rezman!
0 Replies
 
Rezman
 
  1  
Reply Fri 31 Oct, 2003 12:53 pm
So getting back on topic, It is the author's supposition that the various Democrat leaders' stances and statements over the rebuilding of Iraq and our term of occupation are having a negative effect on America's international relations and our ability to dissuade attacks against us.

Do you agree or disagree, and why?


(I'm trying to foster some discussion. If you'd only care to fling your own poop, please find another thread.)
0 Replies
 
perception
 
  1  
Reply Fri 31 Oct, 2003 01:03 pm
Tartarin wrote:
I clicked first, read the opener, and realized we are once again being offered the thoughts of a rightwinger with particularly itchy hemorrhoids. Advise thoughtful contributors to avoid. That said:

Welcome, Rezman!


Tartarin

You should replace thoughtful contributors with "partisan leftwing ideologes"----you imply that" thoughtful contributors" are not open to ideas from the opposition. At least you are consistent. You believe participants should reply to your biased rants with thoughtfull discussion but any essay from the right is to be dismissed without discussion. Time to take a look in the mirror but then you haven't yet been "mugged by reality" so I know it's a bit much to ask of you. Rolling Eyes
0 Replies
 
Rezman
 
  1  
Reply Fri 31 Oct, 2003 01:09 pm
Amazing. Still on the first page and this thread is already a
http://home.bellsouth.net/coDataImages/p/Groups/17/17358/folders/102118/750665twctopimage.jpg
0 Replies
 
ebrown p
 
  1  
Reply Fri 31 Oct, 2003 01:19 pm
Come on now Rez!!!

The author started his piece by saying

"Rarely has the intellectual rot of liberalism been more evident. "

You expect a non-partisan, serious discussion based on this?

The article you posted is a trainwreck. What did you expect?

Geeesh!
0 Replies
 
Brand X
 
  1  
Reply Fri 31 Oct, 2003 01:25 pm
There have been plenty of threads here started with like statements about conservatives, yet a serious discussion was expected to ensue.
0 Replies
 
Lightwizard
 
  1  
Reply Fri 31 Oct, 2003 01:32 pm
Please link to one of these threads.
0 Replies
 
ebrown p
 
  1  
Reply Fri 31 Oct, 2003 01:41 pm
It seems wrong to dump a whole load of manure, and then complain that someone is throwing poop.
0 Replies
 
Tartarin
 
  1  
Reply Fri 31 Oct, 2003 01:42 pm
But it did make me realize something about the rightwing... They don't just want to rule, they want to be loved. Sorry, righties: don't sling the outrage at us and expect us to respond kindly. Why not just get together with a few beers and talk about how awful the opposition is, and let it go at that! Love each other!!
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Fri 31 Oct, 2003 01:52 pm
Those of you complaining the loudest had the option not to post anything at all and then the thread would have scrolled down the list to oblivion. Much as we "righties" do with the extreme leftist dogma that gets spouted out.

Rezman, a new user here, has every right to post as he pleases, not as you, or I please. It is then YOUR decision to post or not. Rezman created this thread with the expectation of discussion. Instead, it became a haven for leftist hate-mongering and the usual back and forth amongst the usual cast of characters.

Next time, if you don't have anything to add to a thread, skip it. You don't HAVE to post in every new thread that comes up.
0 Replies
 
Rezman
 
  1  
Reply Fri 31 Oct, 2003 01:55 pm
I fail to see why we can't discuss the merits or lack thereof in the article. If I wanted to only discuss things with people who agreed with me, I be at Freep or RWC. So you think the author is dumping a load of manure. Why? Can you discuss the salient points? I never said I wanted a non-partisan discussion, but an actual discussion would be great.

I've been here two days. Please tell me the level of discourse rises above saying "That's a load of crap!"
0 Replies
 
perception
 
  1  
Reply Fri 31 Oct, 2003 02:10 pm
Tartarin wrote:

Sorry, righties: don't sling the outrage at us and expect us to respond kindly.

Laughing Could we just as easily say: "Sorry, Lefties: don't sling the outrage at us and expect us to respond kindly.

Beside---there's only one lady in the left wing who I want to "love" me and that's Lola Laughing Sorry Lola ------ I love you but you're just flat wrong about your politics

No---there is only one word that applies here and it's a simple word but with so much meaning----"Respect" and without which there can be no meaningful discussion. So far it's a standoff-----unless you can display some respect then you will probably never receive any in return.

The best example I can come up with is right here on the forum-----Timber landco absolutely detests lefties Laughing but even the most outrageous leftyism receives a respectful and courteous reply---I think each of us needs to indulge in a small moment of introspection about this fine example of diplomacy given in an effort to enhance some thoughtful discussion and to discourage mere partisan ideological rants which only bait and provoke.
0 Replies
 
 

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