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HDTV Monitors & highest quality Video Source

 
 
Ragman
 
Reply Mon 12 Apr, 2010 05:52 pm
OK...here's a techy type question. What am I missing? I went through tech support for FiOS, they can't provide higher than a 60 Hz refresh rate as that is what they are supplied by broadcast transmitters. Until 3D-HDTV hits big and they raise the standard and switch equipment over, they don't show the viewer a rate of 120 Hz (not blurry action shots).

Where can I view the highest quality video source for my large screen (46) Samsung LED/LCD monitor? In particular, I can't seem to get anything that delivers that 120 Hz refresh rate spec. Verizon Fios can't do it and no 'bet bit-stream service (Netflix) broadcasts in more than 60hz refresh rate. Let's say that Fios or any boroadcast service is not the entire problem. Is it that there are no sources when the HDTV monitor is capable of it?

Or is it something else?

I think my probably boils down to: Bluray movies (not bit-stream ones but the actual phys disc) do not show up higher than the 120 Hz rate. Is there a setting I should change in my monitor? If so, where is the setting so I might change it?
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Type: Discussion • Score: 0 • Views: 3,489 • Replies: 24
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Ragman
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Apr, 2010 06:00 pm
Wait...I forgot that Bluray movies and other movies are shown if at max at 24P (that's 24 frames-per-second, right?) So what do I do to find a video source that takes advantage? Does that leave the only source that can dispaly this is if a video games is selected & played on a Blu-ray player or on, let's say, a Sony PS3?
0 Replies
 
talk72000
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Apr, 2010 06:07 pm
LCDs are slow if that is what your HDTV is made of.
Ragman
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Apr, 2010 06:26 pm
@talk72000,
No, it's a more recent tech design...an LED (Edge-lit (not full frame) and the response time is under 4 msec. See my first post: "46 in Samsung LED/LCD monitor"
Ragman
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 Apr, 2010 12:26 pm
Can anyone help me with this?
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 Apr, 2010 12:29 pm
@Ragman,
You're on the bleeding edge bro. The vast majority of people neither know nor care about the tech details of the refresh rates on TV's.

I can see how it would be frustrating to purchase the top-end technology only to find that you can't really use it, as your content streams don't support it.

Cycloptichorn
Ragman
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 Apr, 2010 12:44 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Yeah, but Cyclo. as yiou might know, this is at least 6 month-old tech. The latest tech is the 3D HDTV, which will blow this sucker away. Some already-in-the-market 3d-TVs monitors already claim 600 Hz refresh rate. What's a geeky fella to do?

Is this meaningful spec only to the video gamers?
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 Apr, 2010 12:47 pm
@Ragman,
Ragman wrote:

Yeah, but Cyclo. as yiou might know, this is at least 6 month-old tech. The latest tech is the 3D HDTV, which will blow this sucker away. Some already-in-the-market 3d-TVs monitors already claim 600 Hz refresh rate. What's a geeky fella to do?


The whole 3-d fad is a big joke to me. I don't think people want to sit with special goggles on to watch TV and the majority of 3d programming isn't very good. I doubt it will catch on in the long run.

6-month old tech, perhaps, but the content providers haven't caught up to 2-year old tech, so why expect them to be on board by now?

Quote:
Is this meaningful spec only to the video gamers?


Maybe to some of them, but it isn't to me, and I play a lot of games.

Cycloptichorn
Ragman
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 Apr, 2010 01:27 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Thanks for the reply. I believe you got something there.

However, for sports fannies (like me), the faster refresh rate allows sporting events, let's say the NFL Superbowl or the college NCAA B-ball championships, to be viewed with very little blur and far more realism.

Granted the masses of consumers could care less. Some folks, who refuse to pay $500-$1000 per ticket , liking the comfort and security of their own homes, might want to plunk $$$ down for this level of TV tech.

Believe it or not, there's a small (maybe microscopic) group in the market called 'early-adopters. I prefer to be slower to purchase than them. This group will (and already do) pay for this 3D tech, even though, so far, there's only one video (Animals and Aliens). One movie at a time is trickling out. FWIW, in a showroom I've watched the Samsung 3D HDTV display of Animals and Aliens. The color gamut on display was brilliant (millions of color and shades) ; however, the 3D effect hadn't the impact that the movie Avatar had at the cinema.

As I just learned, one can't compare a projected display with the current state-of-the-art 3D TV tech. It will always be ahead, due to the physics of a projected image. When home projection hits the home sets...well, that's not in my budget or future.

Not so sure if this 3D 'fad' won't catch on with a small niche. Sony, Samsung, and Panasonic are betting the market will nibble ..somewhat.
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 Apr, 2010 01:43 pm
@Ragman,
Quote:

Not so sure if this 3D 'fad' won't catch on with a small niche. Sony, Samsung, and Panasonic are betting the market will nibble ..somewhat.


I just can't see it happening unless they can get rid of the glasses.

Think about your tv-watching situation: you sit there and watch TV but you are doing other stuff as well, interacting with people, looking up stuff on the net, reading, eating. That's all clunky as hell with 3d glasses on- not ideal. It might suffice for a movie but I hardly see it being used in any situation where there are commercials, you'd constantly be taking the damn things off.

The color on the Samsung LED tv is fantastic- I've seen it - but that's not due to the 3d effect IIRC. It's just a high-tech TV.

As for the question of Blur.... I've been watching a lot of football in 1080p and it's so sharp you seem to be right there. Hardly any blur at all, and that's on a 6 ns refresh 40" Samsung. I guess you could spend a lot of extra money but really we're at the level of diminishing returns due to the fact that, as you pointed out, none of the content providers will send you a stream that even SHOWS sports at a high enough refresh rate. So what's the point?

Cycloptichorn
Ragman
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 Apr, 2010 01:52 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Cycloptichorn wrote:

You're on the bleeding edge bro. The vast majority of people neither know nor care about the tech details of the refresh rates on TV's.

I can see how it would be frustrating to purchase the top-end technology only to find that you can't really use it, as your content streams don't support it.


Even though most consumers don't know or care about specs like refresh rate, etc, they make purchases of TVs that look best to them comparatively in showrooms.

FWIW, FIOS tech support indicated that by this fall or early winter, there'll be more 3D sources. Possibly, it's rumored that Superbowl (ESPN?) might be broadcast in 3D HDTV (to someone?)

And, on almost-totally unrelated TV-tech note:

"House” Season Finale Shot On Canon 5D DSLR"
http://www.imdb.com/news/movie

"... director Greg Yaitanes’ tweets into an impromptu interview, including this summation of his experience: “I loved it and feel it’s the future. Cameras that can give you these looks.” Check out Peta Pixel for the whole conversation. The episode airs May 17. The Canon 5D Mark 2 can be bought at B&H, body only, for $2,500. "
0 Replies
 
Ragman
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 Apr, 2010 02:09 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Cycloptichorn wrote:

Quote:

Not so sure if this 3D 'fad' won't catch on with a small niche. Sony, Samsung, and Panasonic are betting the market will nibble ..somewhat.


I just can't see it happening unless they can get rid of the glasses.

Yes, and those glasses need batteries too. Mercy! (And TV mfr only 'give' you 2 pairs with a purchase. Added pairs are $150!)

Think about your tv-watching situation: you sit there and watch TV but you are doing other stuff as well, interacting with people, looking up stuff on the net, reading, eating. That's all clunky as hell with 3d glasses on- not ideal. It might suffice for a movie but I hardly see it being used in any situation where there are commercials, you'd constantly be taking the damn things off.[/i]

I agree. It's a burden and a nuisance that Americans won't cling to.

The color on the Samsung LED tv is fantastic- I've seen it - but that's not due to the 3d effect IIRC. It's just a high-tech TV.
Sorry, for the confusion as I short-handed that part of the discussion. The wider color gamut relates to the full-LED display and advanced computer processing control. My Samsung has 'only' Edge lit LED not the full array.

As for the question of Blur.... I've been watching a lot of football in 1080p and it's so sharp you seem to be right there. Hardly any blur at all, and that's on a 6 ns refresh 40" Samsung. I guess you could spend a lot of extra money but really we're at the level of diminishing returns due to the fact that, as you pointed out, none of the content providers will send you a stream that even SHOWS sports at a high enough refresh rate. So what's the point?


[edit: Pardon my nitpick, but I think you meant 6 ms response time ..not nanosec.]

Ah, yes - the age-old issue with economics law of diminishing returns. Consumers have to be even more careful as latest HDTV tech advances now occur about ever 6 months. With some of us, these advances can be justifiable - to others, like yourself, not justifiable. I kept my purchase price far below the projected May release of Samsung's 40 in 3D set. They already have out in the market the 46 in 3D display. But I digress. LOL

I think it is amazing how well the HDTV sets processors & software reduce blur with higher-end designed sets like Samsung and Sony Bravia.

Perhaps, I'm on a limb here, but as geeky consumers (like me) learn to better calibrate displays, blur can be lessened even more.
Ragman
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 Apr, 2010 02:25 pm
@Ragman,
"Ask and ye shall receive. More (somewhat dated) info on Blu-ray 3D video sources:

CLASH OF THE TITANS April 2, 2010

"March 5, 2010 Movie Releases
ALICE IN WONDERLAND 3D March 5, 2010 "


http://smartcine.com/blog/2010/01/07/sony-pictures-home-entertainment-to-deliver-blu-ray-3d%E2%84%A2-content

"Sony Pictures Home Entertainment to Deliver Blu-ray 3D™ Content"
To coincide with the rollout of 3D electronics hardware from Sony Electronics, Sony Pictures Home Entertainment (SPHE) today announced the studio will begin releasing 3D content on Blu-ray Disc™ worldwide in 2010.

The first planned SPHE Blu-ray 3D release will be the recent animated blockbuster “Cloudy With A Chance Of Meatballs,” timed to the availability of Sony Electronics’ 3D compatible BRAVIA® LCD TVs and 3D compatible Blu-ray disc players in the summer of 2010. More information about the upcoming Blu-ray 3D edition of “Cloudy With A Chance Of Meatballs,” as well as other future SPHE Blu-ray 3D releases, will be announced in the Spring of 2010.

“3D entertainment on Blu-ray is poised to revolutionize the home viewing experience in much the same way that high-definition televisions and Blu-ray Disc have over the past several years,” said SPHE worldwide president David Bishop. “SPHE is proud to lead the way in providing compelling 3D entertainment to complement the new hardware entering the marketplace.”

This entry was posted on Thursday, January 7th, 2010 at 11:18 pm and is filed under Blu-ray News.



0 Replies
 
talk72000
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 Apr, 2010 02:29 pm
@Ragman,
http://livedesignonline.com/mag/led_screens_2/

Applications
By: Robert Wiley and Jack Burden

First, a note about why LCD TV manufacturers are attempting to increase the effective refresh rate (also called response rate) on their televisions. Well, it stands to reason that there would be no increase if there were not a problem of some sort to begin with. For instance, you never hear of plasma TV manufacturers claiming increased Hz rate technology.

"Motion lag results when the images displayed on the screen are moving quickly, or in some cases panning side to side slowly"Indeed there is a problem " motion lag. Motion lag results when the images displayed on the screen are moving quickly, or in some cases panning side to side slowly. In the former, a subtle blur can be seen on the screen as the LCD TV frame rate conversion struggles to keep up with the speed of the programming content " sports action is a good example of this. In the second case, a jerky appearance called "judder" can appear as the LCD has a hard time accurately displaying the moving image even though it may be moving slowly. This results from a combination of the internal processing chips in the LCD TV and the response rate of the TV.

So manufacturers are doing all they can to eliminate or lessen the effects of these problems. They have recently increased the refresh rate or response time to 120Hz and 240Hz as a premium feature on some of the newest high end LCD TVs. How much does it help?

It does a great deal to cut down on motion induced artifacts " especially with fast motion scenes. It decreases motion lag and judder. However, there are nasty side effects you should know about. When viewing film and broadcast programming in 120Hz/240Hz we see unwanted background noise introduced. Many of the tricks movie producers and programmers employ to create depth and give background information a background look are unraveled and what results is a distracting lack of depth. Cinematography is impaired. In some film reproduction, the background set becomes so clear that you can see the cheap tricks used in the studio to create an effect of say stones in the background. With 120Hz/240Hz you can see that they are plastic. It causes unnatural appearance of the image popping out of the background especially in when foreground characters are moving slowly.

You might think this increase in detail of background information is a good thing, but it gives the content a kitschy, plastic, cardboard cutout look that is very unappealing. This is why we only recommend using the 120Hz/240Hz feature for sports programming and gaming where the increased information works to the viewers advantage. Thankfully, thus far manufacturers have introduced the 120Hz/240Hz feature as an option that can be turned off and on (though not with a discrete button on the remote control). In our recent reviews of the Samsung LN-52A850, the LG 47LH55, and the Samsung UN55B8000 we note instructions on how to turn the 120Hz/240Hz features off.

LED & LCD TVs Recommended By Size
15" LCD TV
26" LCD TV
42" LCD TV

19" LCD TV 32" LCD TV 46" LCD TV
20" LCD TV 37" LCD TV 52" LCD TV

In 2009 the 240Hz rate specification worked in two ways. Some manufacturers used LED backlight manipulation as a mechanism which produced an "effective" 240Hz "appearance." This was a somewhat ridiculed claim by those manufacturers that produced a true 240Hz refresh rate. Those manufacturers produced a true 240Hz refresh rate by increasing the pixel activation speed in the LCD panels - thus redrawing the screen 240 times per second. Though it seems that this improvement would cut motion blur in half, our testing shows only a marginal decrease in motion blur from 120Hz. Some 120Hz, 240Hz, 480Hz technologies incorporate unwelcome background information into film based material and are only good for viewing fast motion sports programming. Fortunately, in all TVs that we have tested, the Hz rate feature may be turned off. We recommend this with certain manufacturers as of this writing. (See our reviews to find out which manufacturers we recommend this for).

"A higher Hz rate in the panel produces a picture with less motion artifacts during fast motion and side to side pannning"Recently, at CES 2010 a couple of manufacturers have introduced a 480Hz specification on some LED-LCD TVs. As of this writing all of these specifications are of the LED backlight manipulation variety, as opposed to a true 480Hz refresh rate. Thus the question, "Does the 480Hz specification offer an improvement in TV viewing or is it just a stated numerical improvement that has no bearing on the performance of the TV." From our experience, unfortunately we will at this time will side with the latter stance. We will certainly review this new specification with scepticism, meanwhile giving it a fair shot. We suspect it will have about as much impact on picture quality performance as say a contrast ratio specification going from 2 million to 1, to 4 million to 1 - which we have proven as specification eyewash (see article Contrast Ratio: Are Manufacturers Specifications Important). Just because the specification is there, doesnt make it so.

So just to sum it up. In 2008 there was an increase from 60Hz rate to 120Hz rate in LCDs. In 2009 there were two varieties of Hz rate improvements to 240Hz, and in 2010 we saw a manipulated LED backlight specification to 480Hz inrtoduced. The improvement from 60Hz to 120Hz is the most significant of these and the one showing the most dramatic reduction in motion blue and a smoother side to side panning. The true 240Hz rate improvement in 2009/2010 gives a marginal increase of 30% better than the 120Hz. As of this writing we predict the 480Hz LED backlight manipulation specification will not yield an actual improvement in picture quality performance. A true 480Hz refresh rate has not been introduced. We believe this would improvement would result in a 15 to 20% improvement over the 240Hz rate spec.

http://www.lcdtvbuyingguide.com/lcdtv/120hz-240hz-60hz.html

It appears that Samsung is using LED as backlight and LCD as image refresh which is slow.
Ragman
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 Apr, 2010 02:41 pm
@talk72000,
Talk: Yes, LED design my model Samsung TV set (UN46C-6300) are for back-lighting and are only edge-lit in conjunction with LCD, not full array, thus are slower relative to a set with a full array LED.

Tnx so much! This answers most, if not all, of my HDTV questions about what specs and new engineering effects what. Also, it further guides me as to how to calibrate and where on my menu for calibration.
talk72000
 
  2  
Reply Tue 13 Apr, 2010 02:44 pm
@Ragman,
ur wulcom!
0 Replies
 
Lightwizard
 
  1  
Reply Sat 5 Jun, 2010 09:52 am
@Ragman,
You really have to have the full calibration a professional technician has to calibrate any large screen TV, LCD, LED LCD, Plasma or the gradually phasing out rear projection. There are DVD's with color filters available but they are not ideal. The new Panasonic Plasma Viera's are still the industry standard in picture quality. They also have remarkably dropped in price, now less than any other technology on average. LCD's, in order to approach the brightness, color range, and deep black/grey range have become just as high in energy use. The LED illuminated LCD have lowered the energy use, but cannot duplicated the color range of the Panasonic plasmas.
Ragman
 
  1  
Reply Sat 5 Jun, 2010 03:40 pm
@Lightwizard,
Sorry, but I calibrated the TV just fine. Perhaps you didn't see my earlier notes in the thread.

This model edge-lit LED/LCD is very energy efficient less than 95W...and the black is deep and shadow detail is good. My sister has a 3yr old Panasonic plasma and mine's as good if not better by their own admission.

Technology jumps by leaps and bounds by the month. Perhaps you hadn't see the latest developments?
Lightwizard
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 Jun, 2010 12:04 pm
@Ragman,
I constantly see the new developments, the last time at the CES in Vegas. The new Panasonic Viera Plasmas blow everything else out of the water for detail (even sitting very close up) and deep blacks including the gradations to different shades of grey and muted colors. If you don't have the professional technician's computer color and detail generator (which costs a bundle), you can't accurately calibrate. Because I've done a lot of it with and without access to the full equipment, I was able to calibrate my Sony with good success using the DVD. I did do some tweaks off the calibration in the disc based on my own personal taste. A technician zeroes everything in to international standards. A TV coming off-the-line only is tested that it, basically, turns on and off and the "factory settings" are only approximately correct and can vary pretty dramatically.

BTW, Panasonic has a model with 600Hz refresh rate which is really needed for almost perfect 3-D.
0 Replies
 
Lightwizard
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 Jun, 2010 12:14 pm
from Consumer Report's Blog:

March 12, 2010
3D TV shoot-out: Samsung’s LCD vs. Panasonic’s plasma
3d tv comparison review glasses

As you might know from our previous blogs, we’ve been testing the first new 3D TVs on the market—Samsung’s 46-inch 7000- and 8000-series LCD TVs with LED backlights and 240Hz technology, and Panasonic’s 50-inch VT-20 series 1080p plasma. We bought the Samsung 7000-series set at retail, and purchased the 8000-series model and Panasonic’s plasma as pre-retail samples directly from the company.

For the purposes of our tests, we connected the TVs to each company’s new 3D Blu-ray player, and then switched them to see if the Samsung Blu-ray would work on the Panasonic TV, and vice versa. (They did.) While the Monsters vs. Aliens 3D Blu-ray disc played on both players—as it should per the Blu-ray 3D specification—the 3D demo disc from Panasonic, which includes clips from the Astro Boy movie, plus some sports and nature live sequences, would only play on the Panasonic Blu-ray player.

While we haven’t completed our comprehensive tests on these sets, we have already seen some performance differences between the models, which in the 3D mode are mirroring some of the differences we see when we test LCD and plasma TVs with regular high-definition programs.

So how did the TVs perform? As we’ve reported, when displaying 3D all three sets delivered impressive three-dimensional effects in full 1080p resolution. All were were able to provide a reasonably bright picture, which is advantageous when using 3D shutter glasses, which can make images appear dim.

Overall the Samsung sets provided excellent picture detail, with satisfying colors and contrast. But we did notice some cloudiness on both the 7000-series model—which uses a conventional edge LED backlight—and the 8000-series set—the first set we’ve seen that uses an edge LED backlight with local dimming—which can be distracting when viewing dark scenes. Also, both Samsung sets exhibited a degree of “crosstalk,” or ghosted images, on 3D content, indicating that the images for each eye weren’t being kept completely separate. It wasn’t so noticeable as to be distracting on all scenes, but when visible the image echoes diminished the 3D effect. We also noticed that if you tilted the 3D glasses, such as you would if you were lying down watching the TV, the picture would increasingly get dimmer.

Panasonic says its VT20 sets (as well as the VT25 models that will arrive soon) have new features designed to help boost performance. One is its “infinite black” technology, intended to improve black-level performance. In fact, this TV’s black levels were excellent, the best we’ve seen from a TV since our review of Pioneer’s Kuro models. We also found picture detail to be excellent. Unusual for a plasma set is the inclusion of blur-reduction circuitry, which was extremely effective. Based on our preliminary tests, this TV may have the best anti-blur performance of any plasma we’ve ever tested (although we wonder why it’s a feature that has to be activated).

When viewing 3D content, the TV was absolutely free from crosstalk, with sharp, clean edges on objects in scenes. Also, the set’s virtually unlimited viewing angle with regular high-def programs held true with the 3D content we played, so even those viewing the screen from an angle could see a great picture. Also, there was no change in the picture if the 3D glasses were tilted sideways, unlike the LCD sets.

So what’s our initial reaction to these sets? All the tested sets can produce compelling, realistic three-dimensional images that can duplicate the excitement you’d get in a movie theater. But based on our preliminary tests, we give the Panasonic the edge. In the 3D mode, its lack of crosstalk and great black levels really made three-dimensional images pop. It also didn’t have any issues with backlight cloudiness, and offered a very wide viewing angle. But remember that we haven’t completed our final tests, and haven’t seen enough 3D sets to make any judgments about whether plasma or LCD is inherently a better technology for displaying 3D. But we can’t wait to get more sets into our TV Lab.

—James K. Willcox and Claudio Ciacci

LED or nor, Plasmas still have the superior deep black and viewing angle even if not a 3D. However, one should see a non-3D video source on the Panasonic. It's breathtaking.
 

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