ehBeth
 
  2  
Reply Sat 10 Apr, 2010 09:16 am
@Thomas,
Thomas wrote:
If, on the other hand, you are worried that this small fry will fester into something serious, then we are talking about stuff that will show up in crime statistics. That's what "serious" means.


It already has - but only in the U.S. (of the major Western nations). That's what I've been trying to get you to read about. The statistics are there.

The studies into why this isn't covered more in the U.S. media is also available.

The link that I provided excerpts from has further links to original sources. Interesting, disturbing, stuff.
engineer
 
  4  
Reply Sat 10 Apr, 2010 09:35 am
@engineer,
One more comment: From the tone of my posts, someone might think I advocate complete gun control. That's not the case. I respect the Constitutional right to bear arms, but I also support common sense restrictions. I think licenses with mandatory training in firearms use should be required. I think concealed carry should be very restricted; if someone in the room has the means to kill me and those around me very quickly, I should be able to see the threat. I support tracking gun sales so that weapons used in crimes can be tracked back to their points of origin and so conduits of weapons going to criminals can be identified.
edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Sat 10 Apr, 2010 11:48 am
@engineer,
I have not followed the entire thread, but this last statement by you sums up my own point of view.
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Sat 10 Apr, 2010 12:23 pm
@ehBeth,
ehBeth wrote:
The link that I provided excerpts from has further links to original sources. Interesting, disturbing, stuff.

The link is basically a brainstorm about what the author found in his literature search. Presumably that's all he could do because he died while preparing the manuscript, so couldn't organize his material into something more coherent. Even so, the author admits he's averaging away potentially important information ...

Eric Monkkonen wrote:
In this article, I summarize only the most relevant current scholarship and bring it to bear on explaining the high U.S. homicide rates. I have deliberately kept the presentation simple in order to focus on this nation's special problem with homicide. Huge differences have been flattened and averaged in favor of clarity and simplicity; for example, the homicide rates in post-Communist Russia are (and probably have been) as high as or higher than those in the United States. Should Russia be included with Europe? Most scholars omit it as a special case, and I follow that practice.

... and he doesn't sound very confident in summing up what he found:

Eric Monkkonen wrote:
Can this combination of hypothesized social factors and political systems come close to accounting for such a vast difference between the United States and the rest of the West? It is a start, and it does include the cumulative wisdom of many scholars. The basic data, which have been collapsed into Table 1, are still fragmentary and may change.

This article didn't do much to change my mind either way. But I'm still looking forward to reading Roth.
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Sat 10 Apr, 2010 01:51 pm
@Thomas,
Thomas wrote:
But I'm still looking forward to reading Roth.

As a step in this direction, I searched The New Yorker's website for Randolph Roth, and found this article. In general, it reinforces my impression that we lack good enough data to decide what drives the murder rate. And on the particular point of lax gun control being one of the drivers, it affirms my skepticism -- by referencing Roth himself.

In The New Yorker, Jill Lepore wrote:
What accounts for this remarkable difference? Guns leap to mind: in 2008, firearms were involved in two-thirds of all murders in the United States. Yet Roth, who supports gun control, insists that the prevalence of guns in America, and our lax gun laws, can’t account for the whole spread, and a few scholars have argued that laws allowing concealed weapons actually lower the murder rate, by deterring assaults.

Read the full article

But the article also affirms that this is a topic I'd like to learn more about. Roth's book on murder in America and Spierenburg's corresponding book on murder in Europe are both on my Amazon shopping list.
0 Replies
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Sat 10 Apr, 2010 02:26 pm
@edgarblythe,
edgarblythe wrote:
I have not followed the entire thread, but this last statement by you sums up my own point of view.
I earnestly hope that u will never get any flat tires.
If u DO, I hope that u 'll have a spare and a jack in your trunk.
I earnestly hope that no one will ever try to rob u nor murder u.
If anyone does (man or beast) I hope that u will have the necessary emergency equipment to CONTROL the situation.
Good luck.
0 Replies
 
DrewDad
 
  1  
Reply Sat 10 Apr, 2010 02:28 pm
@gungasnake,
gungasnake wrote:

Quote:
Yes, because firearms provide protection against snake venom....

Sometimes the mind just boggles at what passes for "logic" in some people.


The basic idea is to shoot the snakes BEFORE they bite people, I think most people would have picked up on that...


Yeah, I get that you meant "shoot the snakes". The problem is that guns don't come with a "snake detector". I doubt most people are bitten by snakes they are aware of; if they were aware of a poisonous snake, then they'd avoid it or hit it with a large club.

The problem isn't killing the snake; the problem is seeing the snake before you step on it.

Thus, your "logic" is completely flawed.
DrewDad
 
  1  
Reply Sat 10 Apr, 2010 02:30 pm
@Ionus,
Ionus wrote:
You have a chance of struggling if your attacker has a knife. You have a chance of running. None of these are options if your opponent has a gun.

That's bullshit. Most people aren't accurate beyond a few feet with a handgun.
DrewDad
 
  1  
Reply Sat 10 Apr, 2010 02:39 pm
Guns are safe. Yep.

Police academy instructor shoots self during gun demonstration

Quote:
LIBERTY TWP. " A police academy instructor accidentally shot himself Friday night, April 9, during a gun demonstration in front of police recruits.

Robert J. Stewart, 55, was demonstrating the use of a 9mm Smith & Wesson semiautomatic pistol at about 7:51 p.m. at the firing range when he shot himself in the upper right thigh in front of 24 recruits and several instructors at Butler Tech’s Public Safety Education Center, said Butler County Sheriff’s Sgt. Chuck Laymon.

Stewart, of Bethel, was transported by a Liberty Twp. life squad to Atrium Medical Center in Middletown, where he was treated and released late Friday night.

“He seems to be in good spirits, but he’s just a little embarrassed,” Laymon said. “People ask how these things happen, but this goes to show you that if you get complacent or get in a hurry accidents can happen.”

...
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Sat 10 Apr, 2010 02:46 pm
@engineer,
engineer wrote:
One more comment: From the tone of my posts, someone might think I advocate complete gun control.
That's not the case. I respect the Constitutional right to bear arms,
How do u feel about the constitutional requirement of "equal protection of the laws" ?
Do u believe that the author thereof meant:
equal protection of the law EXCEPT as to defending your life from violence ???



engineer wrote:
but I also support common sense restrictions.
I think licenses with mandatory training in firearms use should be required.
Inasmuch as compulsory education has been accepted, without objection (except by me, when I was 6 years old),
I agree as to teaching effective and safe use of guns, along with arithmetic,
but I cannot see licensing people's right to self defense from predatory violence, an inalienable right.







engineer wrote:
I think concealed carry should be very restricted;
if someone in the room has the means to kill me and those around
me very quickly, I should be able to see the threat.
If he is going to commit MURDER, a capital offense,
then Y do u believe that he ll obay a gun control law ??
Have u asked of murderers, inquiring qua whether
obaying the law is important to them ?





engineer wrote:
I support tracking gun sales so that weapons used in crimes can be
tracked back to their points of origin and so conduits of weapons
going to criminals can be identified.
Prohibitions do not work. Prohibitions are to be LAFFED at.
Neither marijuana nor guns, nor knives will be kept out of criminal hands.
I think that 's obvious.
Rockhead
 
  1  
Reply Sat 10 Apr, 2010 02:47 pm
@OmSigDAVID,
what does pot have to do with this Dave?
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Sat 10 Apr, 2010 02:48 pm
@DrewDad,
DrewDad wrote:
Guns are safe. Yep.
If guns are SAFE,
then throw them in the garbage.

Thay r NOT supposed to be safe.
0 Replies
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Sat 10 Apr, 2010 02:50 pm
@Rockhead,
Rockhead wrote:
what does pot have to do with this Dave?
It saddens me that I was not clear on this point.
I am pointing out the hopeless futility of legal prohibitions.
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Sat 10 Apr, 2010 02:50 pm
@OmSigDAVID,
OmSigDavid wrote:
I cannot see licensing people's right to self defense from predatory violence, an inalienable right.

Do you approve of banning gun sales to violent criminals and psychotics? If so, how would you implement the ban without licenses?
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Sat 10 Apr, 2010 02:54 pm
@DrewDad,
DrewDad wrote:
The problem isn't killing the snake; the problem is seeing the snake before you step on it.
Stepping on a snake can be risky; sometimes he does not like that.





David
0 Replies
 
DrewDad
 
  2  
Reply Sat 10 Apr, 2010 02:55 pm
http://cdn-www.i-am-bored.com/media/bigdickrifle.jpg
0 Replies
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Sat 10 Apr, 2010 03:18 pm
@Thomas,
OmSigDavid wrote:
I cannot see licensing people's right to self defense from predatory violence, an inalienable right.
Thomas wrote:
Do you approve of banning gun sales to violent criminals and psychotics?
If so, how would you implement the ban without licenses?
In my mind, I define psychotics as not being human, and thus, beyond constitutional protection.
(Now someone will call me among the affected minority.)

As to violent criminals, I have said many, many times
that we, the decent people, need to counter-attack the MAN,
not his tools. If a man has proven by a nasty criminal history
to be intolerably dangerous, then he shoud be ISOLATED
from the decent people, ideally NOT on the North American Continent.

Prohibitions are a JOKE; thay r ineffective.
Do u know anyone who desires marijuana but cannot get it??

President Bush showed a plastic envelope containing prohibited narcotics
that were sold 2 blocks from the White HOuse.

Additionally, there is the constitutional requirement
of "equal protection of the laws"; if a criminal is released
from prison, if someone tries to rob him or kill him,
does he have the moral right to defend himself?

If criminals or pit bulls in the street attack his mom
or his child, he has a moral right and a constituional right
to defend her.

Thus, in my opinion, it is both IMPOSSIBLE
to prevent criminals from getting guns
and
if thay are attacked (like Paul Castellano) during an innocent act,
thay have as much moral right as anyone to defend themselves.
It is unconscionable to make them play Russian Roulette,
but we CAN get rid of the CRIMINAL HIMSELF, far, far, far away.

Perhaps the Austrailians will consider renting us Botany Bay,
or some part thereof.





David
0 Replies
 
engineer
 
  2  
Reply Sat 10 Apr, 2010 03:37 pm
@OmSigDAVID,
OmSigDAVID wrote:

How do u feel about the constitutional requirement of "equal protection of the laws" ? Do u believe that the author thereof meant:
equal protection of the law EXCEPT as to defending your life from violence ???

Clearly you defend yourself. Never said or implied otherwise.

OmSigDAVID wrote:
engineer wrote:
but I also support common sense restrictions. I think licenses with mandatory training in firearms use should be required.
Inasmuch as compulsory education has been accepted, without objection (except by me, when I was 6 years old),
I agree as to teaching effective and safe use of guns, along with arithmetic,
but I cannot see licensing people's right to self defense from predatory violence, an inalienable right.

Why not? Owning a gun not only provides you with the ability to defend yourself, it provides you with the ability to effortlessly harm others. People can clearly defend themselves in a variety of ways. If you choose a way that also puts other people at risk, then it makes sense to ensure that you take steps to mitigate the risk while keeping the benefits, hence training and licensing.

OmSigDAVID wrote:
engineer wrote:
I think concealed carry should be very restricted; if someone in the room has the means to kill me and those around me very quickly, I should be able to see the threat.
If he is going to commit MURDER, a capital offense,
then Y do u believe that he ll obay a gun control law ??
Have u asked of murderers, inquiring qua whether
obaying the law is important to them ?

But when they are found with a concealed weapon, law enforcement can immediately assume they intend to break the law. I don't see why this would cause you any heartburn. If your hypothetical murderer walked into a room where honest citizens are carrying unconcealed, they are not in any way disadvantaged to him in terms of self defense. If anything, their weapons are more available. Nor is there any Constitutional guarantee that you can carry concealed. Why doesn't my right to self defense including my right to understand potential threats around me trump your right to carry concealed? Isn't my self defense right inalienable? What possible benefit is there to allowing you to hide your weapon from me?

OmSigDAVID wrote:
engineer wrote:
I support tracking gun sales so that weapons used in crimes can be tracked back to their points of origin and so conduits of weapons going to criminals can be identified.
Prohibitions do not work. Prohibitions are to be LAFFED at.
Neither marijuana nor guns, nor knives will be kept out of criminal hands.
I think that 's obvious.

I didn't propose prohibitions, I proposed tracking of gun sales.
gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Sat 10 Apr, 2010 03:51 pm
@engineer,
Quote:
Why not?


I almost can't believe anybody with any grounding in American history would ever ask that question.

There are several reasons for the 2'nd amendment, all of them good, one supremely good. One such reason is to prevent 50,000 of your countrymen being killed by poisonous snakes in one year; that's why India needs the 2'nd amendment.

But the really major and super reason is to serve as a final bulwark against the possibility that our own government might spin out of control and become tyrannical. THAT is the major reason which every one of the founding fathers who wrote on the subject noted, and it is not compatible with the idea of government itself having any power to license or restrict firearm sales. That would be like a chicken farmer having to get new guard dogs approved by the neighborhood foxes...




0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Sat 10 Apr, 2010 05:17 pm
@engineer,
engineer wrote:
Owning a gun not only provides you with the ability to defend yourself, it provides you with the ability to effortlessly harm others.

No, it does not, because you already have this ability anyway. As any trainer in hand-to-hand combat will tell you, it's ridiculously easy to kill humans without any weapons at all. You just hit them hard against their voice box with the edge of your hand. Granted, the physical effort of doing this is slightly higher than that of pulling a trigger. But it's still trivial.
 

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