OK, we have now bested the lunacy of sexting charges

@aidan,

Aidan, it is striking (to me at least) that your posts are mostly focused on the victim (and a little on the adults).

The fact is that there this story is about kids who showed incredibly cruel, unrelenting and illegal behavior towards a fellow human being.

You can't ignore that what these kids did was immoral and unacceptable. To coddle them, to protect them from the consequences of their actions, is a mistake to them and to society at large.

There was a crime committed here. What is gained by protecting the perpetrators.

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@ebrown p,

Huh?

My first post included a quotation of your post which said this:

Quote:

Hawkeye... I think you have leapt to judgement without understanding the facts of the case. This involved threats of violence backed with physical attacks which included striking her and throwing drink bottles at her. These actions are illegal for adults. An adult would have had legal means to stop the abuse and punish her attackers. This is combined with the fact that a 15 year old kid is trapped in school-- there aren't very many options available for a kid being abused. The schools has a responsibility to provide a safe environment. Her attackers are old enough to be culpable. Violent threats are illegal. Physical violence is illegal. I hope they are punished firmly (but fairly).

And then went on to state why I was in agreement with your statement about the culpability of these victimizers.

A couple of posts later I said this:

Quote:

Instead of asking why she killed herself - maybe we should ask why anyone would want to push her to the point that she felt so lonely, isolated, desperate and helpless that she did?And why there were nine kids involved in this - in concert- it seems? Because that is different from the old days when you had 'the (single) classroom bully.

It's despicable. And it is very different from the days when you had the bully whose purpose was to try to steal your lunch money. The only purpose here seem to be the willful destruction of a person, with malice aforethought.

That's sick. If my child were ever involved in something like this - as I said - prison for that child would be the least of my worries.

I don't know how I could state any more clearly that I think they should be held responsible for their actions - but if that's what's needed so I don't get misunderstood here - here you go 'What these children (and the adults involved who either participated or ignored this bullying and abuse) did is reprehensible and they should be held accountable for their actions and culpability in creating the climate of abuse that led to this girl's despondence and death.

I do not endorse engaging in, or protecting people who engage in - bullying.

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@ebrown p,

But yes, I am focused on the victim because I can only imagine what the last six months of her life were like. Far from home, far from her dad whom she loved, sad and upset and being tormented every day.

My heart bleeds for her.

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I saw the NYT article and had been reading about this before I got to A2K this morning. Read several articles, especially in the Globe. Heartbreaking.

I think statutory rape is really beside the point here. They're looking for some existing laws that they can use to punish the people who were involved in this.

If that is all that happened -- a consensual relationship that was not coerced, as in "if you have sex with me I can make this all go away" -- I agree that this is an ill-advised way for them to go.

But I do think that the kids who did this (bullying stalking etc.) should experience consequences of some kind. What? I dunno. Very hard to figure out a rule that would apply in this situation but then couldn't be abused, itself.

1 Reply

@sozobe,

You have that right sozobe. The DA is trying whatever legal means to prosocute (sp?)

Of course, being from the area, I've been following this closely. And the sad thing is this isn't the only recent case. There was a couple of other children that committed suicide. One a boy, only 9 as a result of bullying. MA has as a result began pushing a bullying law - unfortunately it is becoming less and less severe in order to be passed.

From what I can tell on the surface - there doesn't appear to be anything they can charge the adults with - teachers, school adminstrator, etc. that were witnesses to this bullying and/or were informed of it. However, part of this new bill would make it mandatory (although I believe one of the less severe parts taken out now - is no criminal type charges could be filed) to report bullying.

The child's mother did reach out to the school a couple of times about this bullying, but nothing was done.

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@Linkat,

I'd imagine the unions would be against most of what you're suggesting here.

I wonder how powerful they are in MA and what their reaction to any bills would be.

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@maporsche,

Are you kidding me - Massachusetts and Unions - yeah I'd say the teacher's union is pretty strong...

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@maporsche,

Here is some brief info regarding this bill...

Under the bill, every adult in a school must report any bullying incident to the principal, who is then required to investigate and take disciplinary action. In addition, the principal must inform parents of the bully and the bullied and offer a curriculum for parents on bullying.

“Parents are very much a part of the solution,’’ Walz says. If the behavior is criminal in nature, law enforcement must be brought in.

But critics say the bill does not go far enough because it doesn’t criminalize bullying, nor can schools be held liable if they fail to protect children.

“It’s a real toothless tiger,’’ says victims’ rights lawyer Wendy Murphy, who teaches at New England School of Law.

“The schools must investigate, but they only have to report when and if they determine that it constitutes bullying. It’s an honor system in an institutional environment where the primary goal is to cover up all the bad stuff.’’

And if the schools fail to provide the bullying education, she adds, there’s no sanction.

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@hawkeye10,

hawkeye10 wrote:

the line for me is this: would these youth have faced these charges if the girl had not killed herself? If the answer is no then they should not be charged.

I can't imagine why anyone would draw the line where you've drawn it. There are many reasons why some acts are prosecuted and some aren't. One of the reasons could simply be that the prosecutors failed to do their jobs. I'm not sure why we should let offenders off the hook just because we didn't prosecute them sooner, before their actions led to a greater, albeit foreseeable, injury.

Furthermore, it is a well-known axiom of the law that one takes one's victims as they are. It's quite possible that the victim here was already emotionally damaged and uniquely vulnerable to this type of bullying. But then it's just these bullies' bad luck that they picked on somebody who was emotionally damaged and uniquely vulnerable and who apparently was driven to suicide by their bullying. Oh well. I'm sure that, next time, they'll pick on someone who is much more emotionally prepared to stand up for themselves.

1 Reply

@hawkeye10,

hawkeye10 wrote:

Are we ruining 9 lives because an Irish kid from a bad family situation could not deal with her new American High School culture?

And yet more blaming the victim.

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@Linkat,

Quote:

From what I can tell on the surface - there doesn't appear to be anything they can charge the adults with - teachers, school adminstrator, etc. that were witnesses to this bullying and/or were informed of it. However, part of this new bill would make it mandatory (although I believe one of the less severe parts taken out now - is no criminal type charges could be filed) to report bullying.

I don't think that's quite accurate. Under Massachusetts law, a teacher is a "mandated reporter." By law, if a teacher or school administrator becomes aware of any abuse being, or having been, inflicted on a minor, that teacher is mandated to report such abuse to the appropriate authorities. This law is most commonly applied to teachers who fail to report what appear to be signs of physical abuse apparently inflicted by a parent or guardian. But the law is, in fact, broader than that. I wonder if the DA's office is just taking its time preparing indictments against some adults.

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@Merry Andrew,

Aha - I heard exactly what you are stating on the radio this morning. An attorney called in and stated this is only in the case of a care giver - not in the case of child on child. Thus the big push for this new anti-bullying bill to also mandate child "abusing" child situtation.

1 Reply

I don't think anyone suggested not trying to teach their kids what to do about it, shewolf.

The trouble is - often doing anything about it just makes it worse.

It sounds like this girl did try to do something - she told, she asked for help. Nothing was done and the bullying got worse.

Parents can teach their kid that they're strong and beautiful and wonderful but when you send them off to a building full of peers who tell them otherwise, who do you think they're going to listen to?

And when they do tell and nothing is done about it, what else can they think but that they're not worth the effort to make it stop.

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@Merry Andrew,

I was wondering about manditory reporting.

It seems to me that having the cops show up at the bully's house might really put the parents on notice that their is a big problem.

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@Linkat,

Well, that's interesting. The juveniles allegedly involved in the bullying are being brought to trial. Therefore, any teacher or administrator who was aware of the situation obtaining was aware, or should have been aware, that this was not just unecceptable behavior but was, in fact, actionable. Looked at in this light, those adults could be charged with being accessories before and after the fact.

Y'know the more I think about it (being a former teacher myself) the more I'm beginning to believe that the teachers are, in fact, legally liable. The actions of which the juveniles are accused are obviously criminal. They constitute an instance of criminal threatening. The 15 year old Irish girl was obviously subjected to threats and this should have been manifestly obvious to the adults present. At the very least, these teachers should have spoken to the youths doing the threatening, informed them that what they were doing was not only wrong but illegal, and admonished them that continued behavior of this sort would result in the school being forced to call in the law.

1 Reply

@Merry Andrew,

I am far from knowing what is legal or not - just what I heard this morning. In any case, they damn well should be. You pretty much as a parent give up your care of your child to the school once they are in the school - they should be responsible for their safety - unless of course, schools want to begin allowing parents to sit in with their children during the school day.

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@ebrown p,

Quote:

The fact is that there this story is about kids who showed incredibly cruel, unrelenting and illegal behavior towards a fellow human being

so the DA has said, but then why have the reporters not reported the specifics? This girl had friends, a boy had just asked her out the the biggest dance of the season, if these nine did very bad things why is no one putting the finger on them even now?

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@joefromchicago,

Quote:

I can't imagine why anyone would draw the line where you've drawn it.

Because I believe that the law should be about justice, using the law in vengeance I don't approve of.

1 Reply

@hawkeye10,

hawkeye10 wrote:

Quote:
I can't imagine why anyone would draw the line where you've drawn it.

Because I believe that the law should be about justice, using the law in vengeance I don't approve of.

Well, no, you apparently want the law to be all about the character of the victim.

1 Reply

@joefromchicago,

Quote:

Well, no, you apparently want the law to be all about the character of the victim.

All factors must be considered, to include the character of the victim.

1 Reply

OK, we have now bested the lunacy of sexting charges

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