Christians ruining my Easter

what exactly is your defintion of smart then? mine goes out of the boundries of this realm. believeing in only things you can see and disbelieving things you cant see or ness. comprehend to me is narrowminded or one dimensional thinking (it may sound brash but i dont mean it as an attack) if Christ's kingdom does exsist. What would be better? to truly not be book smart here but have all the treasuers in the world in Heaven by being faithful and obeying God? or having the whole world in your possesion only to die in vain and lose it all and be eternaly seprated from God.

there are all kinds of things i believe (or would like to believe) in that i've never seen (including gods, aliens, fairies, bigfoot etc) i just don't go basing my life on these beliefs

I hope that is true, because even though I'm an atheist/Buddhist, I don't rape babies and so forth. On the other hand, there's a whole lot of fairly trivial stuff that the Bible says you can go to hell for, is there not? I've taken the lord's name in vain, I've had sex outside of marriage (more times than I can count ), I haven't gone to confession ever in my life, I don't believe in the divinity of Jesus any more (used to) so I'm an apostate, I've knelt before false idols (not that I believed in their divinity, either), etc etc. According to the Bible, I'm going to hell, am I not? No matter how many hours I've volunteered at a local school for the blind, no matter how many times I've gone on medical missions to remote villages in Central America, etc. According to the Bible, I'm doomed.



Do you mean the 'last chance' scenario concocted in recent years to offset the things I mentioned above? That last chance to accept a god as it stands before you is problemmatic. First of all, this last chance concept is not taught in the Bible. Also, if this god stands before you, then there is the evidence we'd been waiting for all along. Why didn't he show himself while we were alive, if he were willing to do so as we were dying? And, as evidence, it doesn't require faith, which is also a necessary factor in getting into heaven. I hope you can see how these issues pose a real problem for thinking people.



Again, if a god is there in front of you, that destroys the need for faith.



I meant "fear or self-preservation" as aspects of the same thing. I wasn't proposing an either-or situation.



That is, indeed, good news. If there is a god, then all things are possible, including the ability of atheists to get into heaven without having to believe. Works for me. Kinda lets me off the hook.



I can understand the concept of good fear. I'm afraid of snakes, hurricanes, poisonous spiders, cancer, limb amputation and the like, so that works for me. But I can't hear his voice, so that's a problem. I listened for many years, and all I could hear was my own fears and hopes talking back to me. If I could actually hear his voice, well, I wouldn't have to have faith, then, either. I mean, well, there'd be his voice in my ear, so...



I appreciate that. And I appreciate your ability to separate my doubts about your beliefs from my attitude towards you personally. Whatever else we may disagree about, I have no ill will towards you at all. I hope you live long and prosper.

I believe I have a similar view, and that the only conclusions that can be drawn from the reality of the universe is that the universe is unfolding exactly as it would be expected to do if no magic had been used along the way.

again. how do u define smart? What would be better? to truly not be book smart here but have all the treasuers in the world in Heaven by being faithful and obeying God? or having the whole world in your possesion only to die in vain and lose it all and be eternaly seprated from God.

i have no wish for everlasting life, the few years i have here are plenty for me

I was referring to the logic, not to you. You were trying to use logic in a way that was, well, not logic. In can't be discussed as though it were logic.
As for Pascals Wager, well you've gone and upset an infinite number of possible gods by putting all your eggs in the Judeo-Christian Jehovah. I guess you've got a lottery ticket at least, so in Pascals Lotto stakes, you're probably slightly smarter than me.

1. that is what i am trying to tell you cannot get into Heaven solely on the basis of Good deeds but on you faith in his exhistance.

2. the last chance concept is most definatly in the bible that is why i asked what scripture you have read. look up the book of revalation. the last book

3. If when your standing before God and yes you will then have the evidence to believe and I pray that you then accept him in your lives and you will be saved

4. Its not meant to question God as to why he did or did not do anything in your lifetime. The phocal point should then be well for his own reasons he did not and NOW i can see he does exsist. do I either have faith in what he says or do i deny because of your personal choices and then you are condemed. or are you saved?

5. If God is in front of you it destoys the need for faith if you accept. but if you reject then it is justfied for condemnation.

6. it is possible for an atheist to get into Heaven as i stated all things are possible with God. But my point is at some point in you life here or before the final battle good agaisnt evil you WILL need to Believe in God. in order to be saved and make it

OK, but if he presents himself before me while I'm dying, it's going to be hard to deny knowledge and embrace faith, instead.



If you wouldn't mind, how about giving me a chapter and verse? I don't have a Bible handy, but I could probably find chapter and verse online.



Again, if I have evidence, then it will be knowledge, not faith. There's a big, big, big difference between knowledge and faith. Direct experience and necessary inference (which are what science is all about) give me knowledge. If I doubt, I can experiment with the evidence. With an invisible being, I can't. If I believe in something I can't see, touch, smell, etc, then it's faith. If a god stands before me while I'm dying, then there's no way to have faith. I'd be stuck with knowledge, not faith. So the concept that a god will present itself to me while I'm dying is self-contradictory. It won't give me faith, so without faith, I'd still be on my way to hell. Quite a dilemma. And there's still the question about why this god would be willing to present itself as a direct experience while I'm dying instead of while I'm young and healthy. If it presented itself to me while I was young and healthy, I could live a whole lifetime with it in my knowledge, whereas holding off until I'm dying just doesn't make any sense. Either way, I still wouldn't have faith. I'd either have knowledge or I wouldn't. It's a logical dilemma. I don't think xtian theologians have thought this one all the way through, to be honest.



"The Lord works in mysterious ways" thing is just another way to say "I don't know". It's another way to say "OK, my logic is busted. Just believe because I tell you to, or because you're afraid enough. But stop asking questions that I don't have the answer to." Sorry, but that's pretty much the way it works out.



If I accept while the fact is staring me in the face, then that blows the whole need for faith out of the equation. So why is faith so important in xtian apologetics? And why would a god that loves me unconditionally set up a system in which his own creations would be so likely to end up in eternal damnation? I mean, if he made us what we are, why did he make us capable of the sort of reasoning to doubt his existence? If he'd just show up once in a long while, all problems would be solved and we'd all live happily ever after. It seems to me that he's set the majority of us up (fewer than half the world's population has ever believed in this Judeo-xtian god, after all) specifically so we'd go to eternal damnation and torture. I don't see why I'd want to worship such a vicious god, even if I knew it existed. It's a puzzle to me.



I'll have to skip the discussion about Zoroastrianism being a precursor to this good/evil war concept that xtianity later adopted. It's bedtime here. I don't know what else to say but to reiterate what I've said above several times. When this god stands in front of me while I'm dying, that would destroy the possibility that I might ever have faith. I'd be stuck with knowledge, which is not what the Bible specifies you need to be saved.

What a mess, eh?

First, I notice you are using copy and paste to quote text in your posts. If you click on the little "Open BBCode Editor" option above the reply box you will see a quote button that will allow you to quote the post in a quote box as you see others doing. You can then chop out as much of that post as you want, or keep it all as reference to your comment.

Next, you seem to have taken affront at my comment on the origins of Easter when none was meant. I know modern day Christians don't celebrate Easter to attract more to the fold, but the adoption/adaption of pagan spring rituals into Christian practice isn't something that should be inflammatory -- it's historical. Just as Paul fought to bring pagans into the fold even if they didn't observe the food laws or circumcision rituals of Judaism, early Church leaders adapted pagan celebrations of spring renewal into their Easter traditions. You may or may not be willing to read on the historical origins of your faith, but if you are then here's a link to the pagan origins of Easter.

You subsequently asked for an apology from me for judging you. I reread my posts to you and don't see where that occurred. I think you misread me and my intent. You've made some statements here and elsewhere on the forum that indicate to me that you have no idea how someone who doesn't share you faith can live a spiritual, blessed, honest, and worthy life. I beg to differ. I've spent years studying the bible and other scripture. It all comes up empty other than the parts that say it's what you do in this life is what matters. I'll let Paul Thorn try to explain how I live my life. Peace.

I love Paul Thorn

1. Correct that is why it is deemed the last chance.

2. google the Book Of Revelation or it may be listed as The Revelation of Jesus Christ if I were you I would read the Whole book)

3. basically I said it but i think you misunderstood, not while you are physically about to leave this earth. but yet after you have died you will raise before God in his kingdom and will either have the chance to believe and accept or to better put it we all WILL accept. but it speaks of some then becomming bitter with God for the way things were done. after they are shown he is the one and only Lord some will become angry with God and that will be the final test to prove he showed them that he is the Lord and they are beneath him and they rejected him in the end. whereas some one who makes it will do everything in their power that when they are tested they will give glory to God.

4. No what it means is truly what he speaks when he says to be simple minded people. If you get yourself to the point of truly questioning your creator. how much wisdom have you really gained in your whole life? As much Physical evidence as you were able to grasp. where as simple minded people believe by having faith he exist shows the have all the wisdom in the world. they are not taking this world for all its worth so to speak. they are thinking of things we cannot comprehend here.

5. that is why Jesus is God in the flesh therefore it is possible because you have part of the trinity which is not invisible

6. if God was to present himself to you on this earth and said do not question me would you question him? and yes by his appearance and the pure perfection you would know it WAS and IS the Lord there is no real way to describe that...the buttom line is it would be done in a way to where as you would have to either except him or deny him and the choice is up to you.

7. the question is not why he didnt chose to reveal himself while i was young or why i was older or why it was in the seat of judgement before i make it or i dont, the question is once you do experience the fullfillment of Gods Omnimpotent being do u repent for the wrongs you have done and accept or do you after bowing because angry there is no other way i can describe it all i can say is read the Book of Revelation, or The Revelation of Jesus Christ

it is very possible to lead a very filling life in Gods eyes by what you do but it is not a complete life, to me. the true defenition of faith is to have trust without reservation...that is the best way i can describe it. we are at a fork in the road. you seem to cling onto and grasp that you need to difinitvly see something for it to exhist. which has merit. but to disbelieve everything you have ever heard that your senses cant feel. falls short of having faith in God. God truly is the incomprehensable I don't believe the logic is busted at all personally. I believe Jesus came taught, spoke, did miracluous things and spoke truth. And of course died for our sins to free us. all which in my eyes is evident enough. to the point where I don't in anyway need any PHYSICAL evidence. because he has shown me personally by turning my life from evil to holyness. if you ever see someone who lives a horrific life but then is converted and there life they live afterward I guess if it were possible looking at someones life from a cosmic spectrum you would have all the concrete physical evidence you would ever need. and if you value morals as a way of life. then you would understand that at some point we are ALL going to break them. so therefore it is ness. to have a savior so we would be freed from sins. because none is above it. everyone falls short. therefore Jesus who happened to come to earth. was God in the flesh to me by his acts and said he was the savior and died and destroyed death for us all. redeeming us from sin. I don't see how Christianity is an empty religion. I think any religion who doesn't have a savior is an empty one. anyone can have there ideal morals, but at what point do you then realize that no one will ever keep them all? so without a savior what provides the ness. purposes or evidence in you life to even strive to do good opposed to doing bad? say you do 50/bad and 50 good acts. and one day you wake up and see that you need to change your life in certain areas, and start changing bad things in your life. that is the work of God. and anytime you go backwards it is the work of the devil...simply put

Doesn't sound like a chance at all. It's self-defeating. Think about it...



I've read the whole thing. I was on my way to seminary when I had to take a class in the history of the Bible, taught by a Baptist minister. That's when I realized that it was all made up fables with a few facts thrown in here and there for flavoring. But I didn't memorize every chapter and verse. If you're taking it upon yourself to convert people, it would be in your best interest to provide them with chapter and verse info. Sorry, but I'm not going to re-read the whole thing just for this Internet discussion.



But what kind of retard would stand before a god and reject him? It doesn't make any sense. You're presented with first-hand experience of a god, then asked to have faith (rejecting the first-hand knowledge), and this omniscient being thinks somebody would be stupid enough to say, 'No, thanks'? If there are some people so stupid, then why did this god create such stupid people? Couldn't an omniscient and omnipotent god do a better engineering job than that? If not, why would we want to worship such an incompetent god?



Please don't take this as an insult. I'm just curious: Are you a native English speaker?



Not invisible? Then where can I see this trinity? I've been looking for a long time...



If somebody is standing in front of me with a pistol pointed at my head, I'd pretty much agree with whatever he wanted me to do. Why? Because my eyes would tell me he's real, not because I had faith in him or his existence. Yet again, in such a scenario, faith is out the window, but the Bible demands faith in order to enter the kingdom, no? So this god would be simultaneously removing the possibility of faith and demanding it at the same time. Forgive me if I find it difficult to buy into this religion or any other system that's so full of self-contradictions.



I've read it all. On my own and as reading assignments for the History of the Bible class. It still doesn't figure. It's cobbled-together myths and dreams, compiled by political church leaders who wanted more control over their flock than competitors.

Again, I'm sorry to ask, are you a native English speaker? I've been teaching English as a Foreign Language for about 15 years, and I see some similarities between your grasp of English and that of some of my students. And I want to reiterate that I don't mean that as an insult. I'm just curious, and I think that it may help us communicate better.

1. if you were rendered in based on works and deeds instead would you believe?

2. I totally agree to disagree that it is a whole book of fables mixed in with a few facts...seems to me that the origin of the creater was to this day of an intellect greater than of the mightyist minds whether men or women who have ever walked the earth. to me that is enough evidence to support the theory that the old testament was the Holy Spirit speaking through men as stated and sometimes women. and in the new testament was Jesus himself teaching and speaking great words of wisdom that in ANY generation could be identified and understood to the point where it is realavant enough to where its useful to at least if nothing else be a guide to live your life to the highest compasity that a TRUE God would want people to live their lives in accordanance with. that rendering it a book of truth and Knowledge...back then, now and forever.

3. Sadly I have been in dreams personally fighting Satan and he torments me a lot. So Sadly there is at least one Soul who is going to be condemed. therefor to me it only makes sense that some in your words are stupid enough and are actually going to fall. I don't like that, I wish it is not so. But I don't see reason to reject it. If your belief is that NO ONE will ever be stupid enough to fall, isn't as bad as people may think, for if you are going to doubt any of the bible I would say doubt the evil and hell part. Don't doubt the blessings part. but in any event I have personally experienced enough Via visions and dreams to tell me otherwize. Such as Satan himself persecuting me. ( maybe its a lot easier for myself to understand seeing that I have concrete evidence of my own.) Personally and I am not going to debate this all day but I DO believe there is enough to prove the existance and valitity of The Bible, hence forth all leading up to Jesus dieing for us. (look up a stigmata it is where someone bears the wounds of Christ) and tell me what the signifagance of that happening is if Jesus was not or never exhisted. and What or how is that miraculous act done today if Jesus wasn't here and alive in Heaven?

It was made for Humans to be so above anything else in Gods eyes that we have free will, hence fore the whole reason why sin entered the world, hence Satan, hence Sin, hence needing for a Savior. think of it this way The very fact of you having the choice to believe in Jesus or not is a free will choice. not to bash but you don't accept. So how then can you say you would enjoy a world without free will in where you would have to believe in something you by your actions show you don't want or have no intention of following. So if it has to be that believers suffer for the sake of free will for all including the believers and my own selfishness acts then it makes perfect sense. we truly were not ready to ever follow God to be fully complete the first time around. That is why Jesus is deemed as the second Adam. I don't look at that as a flaw on Gods part as your do in calling him incompetent. I rather look at that as the choice we freely made in a decision we controlled. would you rather exhist and be as smart as a dog and always listen to your master? or would you rather be excedingly smart almost cunning at times which for that the burden we as humans have to carry because of human nature choices that are against God. (sin)

4. yes i am a native English speaker. I already percieve your thoughts and no it doesn't anger me. I don't have the best grammer.

5. Back 2000 yrs ago Jesus came and no one not even Jesus himself knows the exact timing of the second comming. when ever the Father says it is time. but you can see Jesus Christ today in every rightously living man and women on the face of the planet regardless of any boundries such as skin color, ethnicities, tongues and possibly, even spiritual beliefs. though I do believe that EVERY divided kingdom that does exhist right now if they are divided (which to me means has voids) such as evil souls with rightous souls in the same kingdom if you want to call it that is going to fall. Where as with a savior I know it is possible that there is a complete separation from good and evil. because there in no doubting evil exhist. and we see evidence of what every nation sees as correct morals (I call rightousness)

6. I DO NOT share your opinion of if someone was holding a pistol to my head yes I can see he's there. but would NEVER give in to doing ANYTHING he says. matter of fact I would take a bullet for the biggest of my enemies. and if someone was going to be shot in front of me, I would offer my body as an offering. Atheism may see that as very stupid. I don't know how you would look at this act. But I believe if nothing else it is an act of heroism in the highest form possible. And by my faith I will be raised up and be in peace forever. Walking with God Forever.

you are forgiven for finding it difficult for Jesus said for some it won't be easy to enter. but by the grace of God all things can be done. And explain to me exactly how Jesus is taking faith away from people? I see that as your interpretation. I do agree that he requires faith. for some this is easy for some it is not ( that is the bare truth)

7. if what you said is true how about before the church was established and up till the time of Jesus' death...is it still not a miracle in itself that its the Bible's words speak truth in the fact when they say they will never cease and it has survived? or the fact that it is clearly an intellect that in an age such as we are in today we are still using it as guidlines to live our lives...and if nothing more from Jesus than countless teachings that today still baffle the mind about how he knew this information if he spoke clearly with enough evidence that the man at least exhisted...to were we can open and read right now today 2000 yrs later... and still learn something new...what other book or scripture is like it any were on the face of the planet?

Also for any one who is interested look up What the Bible Code is...I think you may at least broaden your perspective in terms another thing that can't be explained

Alrighty, then. How about we just agree to disagree and let it go.

sounds good my friend! =)

No you wouldn't because there is no such thing as being "raised up" or "walking with god". That is is your imagination at work.
What you would really be is dead. an ex christian. Your body would decompose and the essential elements would be recycled by natural processes and that is a fine thing indeed.
You have been sucked in to believing unreal stories with rehtoric that plays into the hands of power hungry people who's only goal is the selfish continuation of that power. Rehtoric that has been refined over generations.
You yourself use this in all your posts without even thinking about it.
Go way and think for yourself instead of letting your masters do your thinking.

No you wouldn't because there is no such thing as being raised up or walking with god. That is is your imagination at work.
What you would really be is dead. an ex christian. Your body would decompose and the essential elements would be recycled by natural processes and that is a fine thing indeed.

1. Since is has been stated by other Atheist's viewpoints I can't get them to see my views and my logic is so to speak busted. And there is no way for me to ever prove that a God exsist's. please explain to me how you know for a FACT that a God indeed does not exsist?

2. I would never call seeing God first hand many times in dreams and in visions as well as perceptions and being able to speak and communicate with deceased ones as imagination...You don't have to answer this if you don't want to just perhaps think about it for a second...If God is False to you and all who doubt, then that would mean he is also False to I and all who believe...once again till someone rebukes me with a factual analysis on this. if Jesus never was here...Describe for me what the purpose or how in your thoughts what a modern day miracle is?? And please explain to me How or what the signifagance is behind people having a stigmata? ( where people actually bear the wounds of Christ) (look up St. Pio, or Padre Pio) and please tell me in as detailed definiton as you can how you would label that act, or describe how that is not irrefutable evidence to support that Jesus was here and was Crucified...and if that so much can be shown. Why would anything else he EVER stated be false?

You have been sucked in to believing unreal stories with rehtoric that plays into the hands of power hungry people who's only goal is the selfish continuation of that power. Rehtoric that has been refined over generations.

Please explain to me how (since I don't even think about it) I personally have been sucked in in you opinion, and am power hungry? what evidence do you have to support this theory? and selfish continuation of power? if I come on here and feel compelled to speak so that YOU in the end are saved assuming for a second that I am right. how then can it ever be deemed selfish?? it was 1 million percent the opposite... it was completely giving Myself and my time ( the only life I have in Atheists views) to benefit others who may have never even had the chance to be exposed to the true definition of Christian texts. I don't feel compelled at this point to focus all my time in believing basic concepts I have already mastered...they are already done rigoursly...but instead I am hear to try to help another who is asleep in Gods eyes to be awakened... not in Any way shape or form selfish. but a complete giving of my mind and time etc...as you yourself being Atheist, I may not agree with you in there is no God. I value your aspects your offering to the table and am broadening my horizons so to speak...And in Every way I value that you at least if nothing else are giving me your time to listen rather than read my post and turn off your computer and walk away...I don't feel in Any way you are being selfish, so not walking down my path or in my shoes I don't understand how one can say they think another human being giving there time in whatever way (especially if it is the one and only life I have and no afterlife) is a selfish act.

Thus you lower the bar so you can fall across it .

Never heard of religious charities ?