Congrats USA! Health care for all!! ??

hmmm.. so, if they don't buy insurance then they have to pay a fine? Wow... and that is constitutional?

The GOP AG's suing are stepping into this without thinking, aren't they?

this is not the same, this is not voluntary

Aw.

Getting insurance is still voluntary, you just have to pay a fine if you don't get it.

Sound's an awful lot like Medicare B.

How many of you are OK with the notion that the government (a body that is supposed to serve with our consent) can coerce you to buy a product you neither need nor want?

Yes, all of you Socialists who believe that virtually unlimited healthcare is either a natural right or one we as enlightened humans should legally establish, will argue that in this case the end justifies the means.

So what happens when the government tells you that you must buy a gun, or War Bonds, or serve in the military? Oh no! This will never happen because Progressives are on the rise and will rule forever! Just like Karl Rove hoped would be the case for conservatives.

Young people who have every reason to believe they might need either no health care insurance or the absolutely bare minimum must have their personally motivated decisions rendered null and void for the benefit of a, highly questioned, 10% of the American population.

Because the Collective is more important than the Individual.

If you believe the preceding --- fine. I think you are dead wrong and intend to oppose you but at least you are honest in your belief.

The rest of you...who believe this but realize that such a statement can't currently play in America and who are willing to cloak their true intent with sellable mendacity, ...a pox on you for the liars and miscreants you are.

You do know about the draft, don't you Finn? At many times in our history it has been used to make people serve in the military.


Sometimes the ignorance of RWers amazes me.

finn, the government can force me into a position where the odds of my imminent death are virtually certain, and you I'm pretty sure would agree with that decision. (I'm thinking of the first wave to hit the beaches on DDay). Given that they can force me to die, I'd say forcing me to live healthy is infinitely preferable.

you beat me to it, parados, you're pretty quick on your feet, guy.

So what's your solution Finn? I'm a small business owner who cannot afford the $16,000 a year it would cost me for healthcare and disability insurance. I know a lot of people like me - they all work for themselves or work full time for small companies. We are a bigger part of the population than you think. Wouldn't it be better if all Americans paid something? If you're rich you can afford more outside of the basic system, but at least people like me would not have to worry about going bankrupt if we get sick, can't run our business and lose our insurance when we miss one premium. Why do we need CEOs at insurance companies or Nanny Corporations to dictate what kind of care we can have? We all chip in to have the pot holes fixed.

I suggest you look into single-payer health systems in other countries, Finn. Ask the people in them whether they feel oppressed having to support the system. Ask the a2kers who live in those systems. Ask if they envy what you think is our "freedom" or whether they pity us because of how badly the system serves us. (hint: it's the latter).Ask about how much their systems cost them as opposed to how much we shell out (hint:American healthcare costs twice as much per capita). Polls show close to 80% of Americans regard health care as a right. In a democracy, when that many people think something is a right, it becomes a right. Obamacare is a first step on the road to making it a right for everyone. May I remind you that when polled far more than a majority of Americans supported a public option, which got derailed early on by the shrill nay-saying minority. You're not representative of American values, Finn. We are.

As usual, Parados you leap to what you think is a clever response without much thought.

Obviously the government has, in the past, told certain members of its citizenry that they must serve in the military.

And when it did you were A-OK with it?

No, he's pretty predictably reflexive in his responses.

Perhaps you can beat him to the punch in responding to my counter-argument.

Young people WILL need healthcare, Finn. There's no way around it, if for no other reason than they get old. Unless of course they drive drunk and wrap their car around a tree and die instantly. There's no guarantee that they're not going to have a stroke or develop Parkinson's disease tomorrow. They can game the system and force everybody else to bear the cost when the heart attack comes, or they can be part of the system. The country has opted for the second choice.

It's no different then what they do with the extremely popular Social Security and Medicare.



The ends NEVER justify the means. These means are justified on their own.



I will either comply with the law, or challenge it legally.

Jeez, what a maroon you are, Finn.

Cycloptichorn

Finn d'Abuzz wrote:


And you're not, are you, Finn? <sarcasm alert: that was sarcasm>

You're right. Let's just do away with all this free market crap about "buying a product". Let's make it a straightforward tax, which is how we currently finance Medicare, Medicaid, and the VA. Certainly you have no constitutional problem with paying taxes, do you?

What solution I might advance depends upon the problem we seek to address.

From the outset, the driving force of ObamaCare was to provide health insurance to those living in American who do not have it.

First of all there is a rational and vigorous debate around who in America needs health insurance, can't get it, and should be able to:

Some percentage of the Administration’s claims that has climbed from 18 to 24 to 30 million people includes people who have chosen not to get it,
people who could have it if they were at least minimally smart enough or interested in trying to obtain it, and people who are in this country illegally and therefore cannot lay claim to the rights of American citizens.

Let's say we only reduce the number of uninsured to those who are American citizens who cannot obtain health insurance (public or private) but want to, and come up with 15 million.

A whole lot of people yes, but less than one half of one percent of the population of the US (which means that if you refuse to buy my argument, you are talking about less than 1% of the population) and so we should make a "historical" change in the way our society functions?

My solutions to the real problems we have with health insurance begin with changing the model. For whatever reason we have come to a point where the majority of Americans expect health insurance to be provided by their employers (BTW - the overwhelming majority of them are just fine with this arrangement).

99.9% of employers don't provide their employees with auto or homeowners insurance. If health insurance actually operated like insurance, employers would not provide it.

You don't buy homeowners insurance and expect your insurer to pay for someone to come to your house and check for foundation problems. You don't buy auto insurance and expect your insurer to pay for your oil changes or tire rotations.

Yet most of us only pay a small portion of health insurance premiums and expect it to pay for something like 80% - 90% of each and every service we obtain from a medical professional.

If people want virtually free health care, they have no hope but to look to the government for it.

The infuriating irony of it is that the government cannot provide the level of health care that Americans enjoy for free! It's just impossible.

So we will have to pay for the services in increased taxes or scale back on our expectations. In an incredibly inefficient system like government beaurocrasy, we will need to do both --- Socialized Medicine in the UK and Canada.

Your small business will succeed or fail on its merits. if you want breaks, look to the government as respects how it taxes you.

I make more than $250,000 a year and I have no doubt I deserve it. In fact, I think I deserve more based on the value I provide my company.

In any case, the taxes I pay to the government far exceed the proportional value of services I receive as an individual. Because I can pay more I should?

Many years ago when I was struggling to make ends meet, my sister took a different path.

I worked long hours for my wages and asked no one for a handout.

My sister and her two children subsisted on welfare benefits, although she was perfectly capable of carrying a job.

My father was an engineer and a true member of the middle class who, although he made a modest salary, was a child of The Depression and obsessively saved money.

One day my sister and her young kids picked me up at the airport and eventually the conversation came to my sister's financial condition and the fact that my father would not empty his bank accounts to keep her in the life style to which she had become accustomed while living at home.

As depressing as it was to see my sister reduced to a parasite, I was absolutely shocked to hear her 7 and 5 year old children chime in from the backseat with

"He has the money!!"

This is where we are today.

But why didn't the Democrats follow your advice Thomas?

Because they knew Americans would not respond favorably to new taxes.

So they tried to hide what they should have called a tax.

(You need only take a look at a recent discussion between Obama and George Stephanopolus to appreciate that the President was adamant about not calling this element a tax)

So now their disingenuous ploy is being called to Constitutional task and we are all supposed to just get over it and accept it for what it is --- a tax?

No, parados. You never have to pay a fine, by whatever name - unless you choose to accept Medicare at a later time. This one place where Massachusetts went astray. They let their citizens pay fine after fine, till they felt a major medical crisis were upon them.