40
   

Congrats USA! Health care for all!! ??

 
 
Amigo
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Mar, 2010 10:09 am
@OmSigDAVID,
OmSigDAVID wrote:

Ceili wrote:
Ok, I've been watching and hoping that this would happen. I don't quite understand the logic behind the anti-health care movement. Some seemed to hate it because it was a Democrat's platform and the rest mostly just seem to really dislike other Americans, or at least contributing to their well being. I've tried, really I have to understand the debate, the nay side, but I'm afraid I don't quite understand the problem. But I'm happy for you all, none the less.


Hope you are too.
I am not happy with it. Government was NOT created to do this. Government has NO AUTHORITY
to do this. It is another act of USURPATION.


Less than 24 hours after the U.S. House of Representatives gave final approval to a sweeping overhaul of healthcare, attorneys general from several states on Monday said they will sue to block the plan on constitutional grounds.

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSN2219776820100322
0 Replies
 
MontereyJack
 
  4  
Reply Mon 22 Mar, 2010 10:39 am
Re, OmSigDavid, I see no refutation anywhere in the other thread or on this one of the EXPLICIT provision in the Constitution that Congress can raise taxes TO PROMOTE THE GENERAL WELFARE. I only see David's statement that it doesn't say that, it only says Congress can raise taxes. Are you saying, David, that Congress can only raise taxes to promote the general welfare but that it doesn't have the power to SPEND those taxes to promote the general welfare?, presumably on some silly basis like you don't believe it''s a designated power? That, frankly, reduces your reading of the Constitution to absurdity. Not that your reading hasn't gotten pretty absurd well before this point.
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Mar, 2010 11:11 am
@Phoenix32890,
Phoenix32890 wrote:

As far as I am concerned, I don't give a rat's ass about the whole thing. I will probably not be around twenty years from now.

I feel sorry for the young people who think that they will be getting something for nothing. I have visions of the medical profession degrading into mediocrity, as the best and the brighest young people will stay away from medicine like the plague. Who wants to be told what to do by a bunch of self serving bureaucrats?

I am appalled that people who have paid for expensive medical coverage will be taxed, so that people who have put little into the system will be covered.

Remember, if the government taxes to give services to people who do not give their share to the economy, the money has to come from somewhere. And guess where that money will come from?

Be afraid..................be very afraid. This is only the beginning!



Yes indeed.

We are becoming a nation of grasshoppers
0 Replies
 
engineer
 
  3  
Reply Mon 22 Mar, 2010 11:12 am
@Irishk,
Irishk wrote:

IMO, it only promotes the general welfare of health insurance companies and big pharma, while forcing people to buy their product or face the threat of fines and/or jail.

This would only be true if we weren't paying for every dollar spent on healthcare today. Every cent spent on healthcare comes from us as it is. We pay it in taxes, companies pay it instead of paying higher salaries, we pay for it when we go to the hospital in term of higher costs that healthcare providers charge to make up for the unreimbursed care they provide for those unable to pay. If we pay every penny today and we pay every penny under this new system, it seems like a wash. If getting people care earlier results in better results at lower expense instead of paying top dollar when they finally have to go to the emergency room, that's a win.
0 Replies
 
littlek
 
  2  
Reply Mon 22 Mar, 2010 03:24 pm
@Phoenix32890,
Phoenix, I don't think anyone believe we're getting something for nothing!
ehBeth
 
  4  
Reply Mon 22 Mar, 2010 03:32 pm
@Phoenix32890,
Phoenix32890 wrote:
I feel sorry for the young people who think that they will be getting something for nothing.


I think you significantly underestimate young people.

I'm curious how you explain the good and excellent medical care available in countries other than the U.S. Specifically, in countries where public health care options have been available for decades.
ebrown p
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Mar, 2010 03:37 pm
@littlek,
I respectfully disagree. We are getting something for nothing.

As ehBeth points out, based on the fact that other countries are doing it, it is clearly possible for us to get better quality healthcare for much less money.

Fixing health care is getting something for nothing.

(or maybe right now we are getting nothing for something)
littlek
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Mar, 2010 04:07 pm
@ebrown p,
I am pretty sure Phoenix was referring to the price tag more than the passage of the bill itself.

And, it ain't fixed yet!
ebrown p
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Mar, 2010 04:27 pm
@littlek,
I am referring to the price tag too. The CBO scoring was pretty good... the bill was straight forward that the initial up front cost will be paid by people making over $200,000. The CBO predicts this bill will reduce the deficit $138 billion over the next 10 years.

Over the long haul this is a clear win. As a whole the country will be getting better health care for less money.

Of course, a public option or better yet a single payer system would have been even better. But, you take what you can get when you can get it.


littlek
 
  2  
Reply Mon 22 Mar, 2010 04:35 pm
@ebrown p,
Still think you might be missing Phoenix's point. Only she can say.
0 Replies
 
panzade
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Mar, 2010 04:42 pm
@ebrown p,
Quote:
(or maybe right now we are getting nothing for something)

You beat me to it.
0 Replies
 
kickycan
 
  3  
Reply Mon 22 Mar, 2010 04:50 pm
Yeah, all you lefties can celebrate all you want, but there is something very bad that came out of this bill passing.

************

McCain: Don't expect GOP cooperation on legislation for the rest of this year
By Michael O'Brien - 03/22/10 11:14 AM ET

Democrats shouldn't expect much cooperation from Republicans the rest of this year, Sen. John McCain (R-Ariz.) warned Monday.


McCain and another Republican senator decried the effect health reform legislation has had on the Senate, a day after the House passed the upper chamber's bill.

GOP senators emerged Monday to caution that the health debate had taken a toll on the institution, warning of little work between parties the rest of this year.

"There will be no cooperation for the rest of the year," McCain said during an interview Monday on an Arizona radio affiliate. "They have poisoned the well in what they've done and how they've done it."

http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/88285-mccain-dont-expect-gop-cooperation-the-rest-of-this-year

OMG! What will they ever do? The Republicans, who up until now, have cooperated so well and have done everything in their power to be helpful and supportive in getting things done, won't be cooperating anymore!! That is quite a shocker. I hope the country can survive this huge change in attitude.
ebrown p
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Mar, 2010 04:57 pm
@kickycan,
That's funny Kicky.
0 Replies
 
Ceili
 
  2  
Reply Mon 22 Mar, 2010 05:02 pm
I've heard that the USA spends more per person than any other country on healthcare. This was up till yesterday, I can't see how this will be anymore expensive from today on. In fact, from what I've read, the cost should come down substantially and now everyone will be covered.
Thanks for responding, I didn't expect it. But thanks anyhow ;-)
Ionus
 
  3  
Reply Mon 22 Mar, 2010 05:10 pm
I dont get it. Is the USA so stupidly inefficient or so pathetically poor it cant do what the rest of the rich world does ? It sounds like the end of the world from some of those here. Would the world be heroically saved if poor people in a rich country died from preventable and curable illness ? Perhaps we should stop innoculations, then the rich can die with the poor.
maporsche
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Mar, 2010 05:18 pm
@Ceili,
I don't know how you could possibly think that. What about this bill will actually reduce costs?

I just posted this on facebook.

Quote:
Here are a few reason why I believe I'm right.

1) There is nothing in this bill to eliminate the anti-competitive nature of today's insurance industry. There are states in this country where one single health insurance company controls over 90% of the market. The health-insurance companies have a special deal where they cannot be sued for anti-trust practices. You say we're going to have increased competition, but there is nothing in the bill to accomplish that. If you look at things at a state by state level you'll see that there really is NO competition in the health insurance market. That's one of the problems that this bill does not address.

2) Many millions of those 32 million people don't have insurance because they've been deemed, up to this point, un-insurable. Which most often means that there is no price point where they can be insured at a level where their input (in money) exceed the expenditure of the insurance company. A person with diabetes for example is many many many times more expensive than a healthy 25 year old. These people with diabetes will now have to be covered and insurance companies cannot deny them coverage....and they can't charge them more...that means they'll charge you and me more. These people aren't all healthy or low-risk.

3) Several pieces of this regulation end practices that insurance companies use to reduce costs (denying people for pre-existing conditions, recision, etc). With those practices now illegal, those costs that were saved will have to be absorbed. They will be absorbed by all of us.

4) Several new taxes are going to be levied on the insurance companies; those taxes will cause rates to go up.

5) Plans are going to be more standardized and low price plans are going to be outlawed as well. For example, I have a plan right now called a high deductible plan. I pay for every healthcare cost under $3000/yr. Every doctor visit I have, every prescription I have to buy, etc, I pay for up until $3000; then my insurance company kicks in. This plan costs me very very little. This plan would be outlawed under this new plan. Plans are now required to cover things like mental health services, substance abuse services, alternative medicine services, etc. This will raise the prices of any plan out there that doesn't currently have those services. Even though I'm a man, I'll be forced to buy insurance that covers pregnancy services. Women will be forced to buy insurance that covers testicular cancer. Etc.

6) Insurance companies will not be able to price based on risk anymore; people who are 600lbs overweight will be charged roughly the same as the marathon runner. This will raise the price for the marathon runner.

Just a few of the things that I think will drive up costs for everyone, and we haven't even seen the full bill yet. You'll see as the months go by that there are even more things that we haven't seen yet.

Please don't read this as me being opposed to the bill. I support much of it. I think the insurance companies are despicable and I'm very glad many of their more egregious practices are being outlawed.

But to claim that this will make everything cheaper for those currently insured is laughable. There is no way it will be cheaper for the currently insured. Cheaper for people with illnesses, yes. Cheaper for drug-addicts, yes. Cheaper for people who smoke like a chimney, drink like a fish, and eat like a pig, yes. Cheaper for [my brother] or me, or the millions of us who are generally healthy....HELL no.

I'm willing to pay these increased costs, both by means of my premiums going up and by means of higher taxes and higher prices for goods from companies who are now going to be fined.


Do you remember the credit CARD act was supposed to reduce the cost of credit for everyone too....remind me how that turned out.
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Mar, 2010 05:19 pm
@Ionus,
They're trying, they're trying.. big anti vaccine movement here. Just how big, I'm not sure, but big enough to cause worries about the effects of it.
0 Replies
 
littlek
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Mar, 2010 05:20 pm
@Ceili,
Ceili, Massachusetts passed a bill that, as a model, helped the Obama guys come up with this federal bill. I don't know how similar they are now. But, our health care in MA was supposed to become much cheaper. It hasn't moved much, price-wise. We do have more people covered. But, the law needs tinkering in the state still. I imagine that the federal plan will need tinkering for a while too before we see prices drop. I think maybe big pharma and insurance agencies still have too much power.
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  2  
Reply Mon 22 Mar, 2010 05:43 pm
@Phoenix32890,
Phoenix wrote:
Be afraid..................be very afraid. This is only the beginning!

Next up: Taxes on internet correspondents who waste green photons by posting colored messages in online communities!
0 Replies
 
Irishk
 
  0  
Reply Mon 22 Mar, 2010 06:05 pm
@Ionus,
Ionus wrote:
I dont get it. Is the USA so stupidly inefficient or so pathetically poor it cant do what the rest of the rich world does ? It sounds like the end of the world from some of those here. Would the world be heroically saved if poor people in a rich country died from preventable and curable illness ? Perhaps we should stop innoculations, then the rich can die with the poor.


The U.S. has also provided military welfare for most of the free world for decades and that is and has been expensive.

As this article in the Wall Street Journal explains, we can either be a welfare state or a military power. We cannot, however, be both.
 

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