38
   

Is Evolution a Dangerous Idea? If so, why?

 
 
spendius
 
  0  
Reply Fri 9 Apr, 2010 04:36 am
@Ionus,
Io-- when fm said--"Our universe is sending us scads of radio data that is directional and seemingly shifted toward the blue at outer reaches." It is the word "sending" that gives the anthropomorphic wally away. "Directional" is as bad. And what can one say about "seemingly".

There's no point trying to be scientific with that sort of talk.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  0  
Reply Fri 9 Apr, 2010 05:32 am
@Ionus,
Quote:
Are you aware of why the CERN was built ? It was because we had no measurements, no real data below the size of an quark.


I could suggest other reasons Io. We have too much money is first due to the Christian (Faustian) success story.

Get this--it's from Nick Leeson's book Rouge Trader

Quote:
When I first stepped out on to the trading floor, I could smell and see the money. Throughout my time at Barings I had been inching closer and closer to it, and in Singapore I was suddenly there. I'd been working in various back offices for almost six years, pushing paper money around, sorting out other people's problems. Now, on the trading floor, I could work with instant money--it was hanging in the air right in front of me, invisible but highly charged, just waiting to be earthed. As I watched the traders all screaming at each other in their red jackets, I imagined an electrical thunderstorm. There was lightning in the air, and all I had to do was give the right signals and it would charge through me as if I were a copper conductor.


Oswald Spengler would have loved that. His theoretical explanation of Christian money come true. No wonder old Spengi thought Darwin was shallow.

After that one can easily see the necessity to nationalise the banking system. A politically impossible project unless a frightened population could be engineered. Which it was, whilst learned men and women of great, galloping gravitas were arguing in a Dover courtroom about blood clotting in ******* chiclids as the world's media had a milking session and running to fat lady teachers of a certain age basked in their alloted 15 minutes of fame after finding a smoking gun in some old dusty files. And our dear liberal evolutionists hanging breathlessly on every word and they can't make head or tail of Spengi's great book and dismiss it as twaddle or bullshit. Naturally. I can understand why they would.

And Desmond & Moore have the great scientist stood on the shore in Tierra del Fuego contemplating non Christian human beings. He saw one pregnant, naked woman with freezing rain dripping from her body. Unkempt, red skins filthy and greasy, hair entangled, voices discordant, gesticulations violent and without any dignity, sleeping uncovered on the wet ground. coiled up like animals, locked in perpetual warfare over the means of subsistence. "Whence have these people come?" Darwin wailed.

He would have been better asking from whence his own people had come. And grabbing the next ship home to Fanny's petticoat paradise.


0 Replies
 
Joe Nation
 
  2  
Reply Fri 9 Apr, 2010 06:20 am
Evolution to hear Spendius tell it, if you can stand to sift though the enormous amounts of chaff to get to what he's on about, is dangerous because it will cause the myths to disappear into the sand from whence they were built. It's as if he's never noticed how many other Bronze age myths we've discarded without damage to ourselves. (pssst. Disease isn't caused by devils. Blood isn't sacred fluid. The Earth does not sit in the center of a perfect circle of stars. Those stars are not being tossed about by the winds created by the wings of archangels. Killing a particularly colored calf in the Spring does not effect the growth rate of wheat. ....) So, fear not.


Even today as he holds up the Holy Roman Catholic Church for us to beam at, someone apparently hasn't told him of the liturgical changes within that institution: i.e. No more Hell. Yep, no more hell, gave it up a few years ago, admitted it was all made up. Huh. What next? No more talking snake in the Garden? Well, maybe, so say those who do the preaching and teaching these days. Oh, also gave up that "The Jews killed Jesus" thing. Really very nice of them to do that. Christlike, one would say.

And please don't let me forget to add that evolution is accepted scientific fact within the Catholic Church and has been for about fifty years** and it's only this most recent Pontiff who has been trying to backcrab on that in his writings. (As Carol King sang: It's too late, baby.)

There's more but here's the thing, the Church and all of the other churches are all in the same state as every other human endeavor has ever been, they are evolving.

Joe(just like everything in this reality)Nation

** Essentially, we evolved, our souls did not.
[quote]Concerning human evolution, the Church has a more definite teaching. It allows for the possibility that man’s body developed from previous biological forms, under God’s guidance, but it insists on the special creation of his soul. Pope Pius XII declared that "the teaching authority of the Church does not forbid that, in conformity with the present state of human sciences and sacred theology, research and discussions . . . take place with regard to the doctrine of evolution, in as far as it inquires into the origin of the human body as coming from pre-existent and living matter"[but] the Catholic faith obliges us to hold that souls are immediately created by God" (Pius XII, Humani Generis 36). So whether the human body was specially created or developed, we are required to hold as a matter of Catholic faith that the human soul is specially created; it did not evolve, and it is not inherited from our parents, as our bodies are.[/quote]
Philis
 
  2  
Reply Fri 9 Apr, 2010 06:43 am
@spendius,
cage match
http://i221.photobucket.com/albums/dd284/Philis37/Buttons/cagefight60.gif
0 Replies
 
rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Fri 9 Apr, 2010 07:06 am
@Joe Nation,
Joe Nation wrote:

** Essentially, we evolved, our souls did not.
So whether the human body was specially created or developed, we are required to hold as a matter of Catholic faith that the human soul is specially created; it did not evolve, and it is not inherited from our parents, as our bodies are.

So does God create a new soul at the conception of every child? Or were they all created at once eons ago and just wait around for a body to inhabit?
Joe Nation
 
  1  
Reply Fri 9 Apr, 2010 08:08 am
@rosborne979,
Dunno, it's always described as "immortal soul" but I never heard from the Sisters of Notre Dame say that it couldn't be recycled. I did have a Little Sister of the Poor introduce me to zen early on in my education. That has served me well at times in my life.

The fact remains that the only idea which is dangerous is that which is believed to be immutable. Reality changes and the poor duffs clinging to their myth have to stretch the myth to fit the reality.

Joe(After awhile the ridiculousness begins to show)Nation
0 Replies
 
plainoldme
 
  2  
Reply Fri 9 Apr, 2010 08:31 am
@spendius,
See, you do care. Otherwise, you would not have stated your purported height . . . which we can neither prove nor disprove . . .but, which, I for one, tends to disbelieve.

When I was in 6th grade in Dearborn, Michigan (academic 1958-59), a classmate asked Sister Mary Thomasine if it would be "alright" to believe in evolution. She said that as long as you believed that, at some point, God breathed a soul into an ape.

That sounds like an easy and apt solution to your problem. But, oh, you like being tiresome.
plainoldme
 
  1  
Reply Fri 9 Apr, 2010 08:34 am
@edgarblythe,
While evolution was not controversial when I was a young woman, a great deal of conservative men were interested in pre-marital sex. My brother briefly became a Baptist because he found a church with a theatre group and wanted to develop his acting skills. He left the group because the theatre and rehearsals were excuses to engage in adultery. Your assumption is correct.
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Fri 9 Apr, 2010 10:01 am
@plainoldme,
Quote:
See, you do care. Otherwise, you would not have stated your purported height . . . which we can neither prove nor disprove . . .but, which, I for one, tends to disbelieve.


But you declared, in a fluster of indignation, that I am "little" and my 72 inch frame gives me an excellent reason for disbelieving you just as my declaring that you are wider than you are tall might cause you to disbelieve me in the event of you being taller than you are wide and thus only waddle a bit.

I would worry though if I used "little" as an insult. Unless "little git" meant that my gittishness is only slight. Which would be a compliment in view of the big gits whose drivel I have to read. People with no souls are on a level with the beasts and crawling things and that's heavy duty gittishness. It means that they only control their animal urges out of a fear of the law and their pretence of being civilised Christians is a mere making a virtue out of a necessity.
spendius
 
  0  
Reply Fri 9 Apr, 2010 10:09 am
@plainoldme,
Quote:
He left the group because the theatre and rehearsals were excuses to engage in adultery.


A sensible young Christian gentleman might well consider that the only worthwhile reason to join a theatre group. A nip into the confessional once a month would soon clear any slates clean and ready for the next month.

It might have been that your brother felt a bit intimdated and as journalists used to say when investigating prostitution on behalf of their avid readers "I made an excuse and left".
Joe Nation
 
  2  
Reply Fri 9 Apr, 2010 10:33 am
Quote:
A nip into the confessional once a month would soon clear any slates clean and ready for the next month.


The above is mis-statement of Catholic teachings on confession and the forgiveness of sin. Spendius continues to show that he is a cafeteria Catholic, picking and choosing what he wants to adhere to or dispense with. tsk tsk.

If a person could believe that he could 'nip into a confessional' (something, by the way, that Catholics haven't done in about twenty five years) and receive absolution without delivering aloud both an act of contrition and a true intention of not repeating the offense than they would be possessed of a truly dangerous idea.

There has to be, in order for a sin to be forgiven, an avoidance of the occasion of that sin in the future.
It just reminded of a conversation I had years ago with a friend. We were waiting to go to confession when we saw, let's call him Father Bob, enter the confessional.
"Oh no," says my pal," I can't go to Fr. Bob for confession."
"Why not?" says I.
"Well, last Saturday I confessed to him that I was screwing Janice F. and if I go in there today and tell him we did it again on Monday night, he's likely not to forgive me."
"He's likely to throw you down the church steps."

Joe(He waited until Father Pete showed up.)Nation
spendius
 
  0  
Reply Fri 9 Apr, 2010 11:00 am
@Joe Nation,
How can a grown up man misunderstand the dynamics of the institution of confession quite so comprehensively as that?

Have you seen farmerman's latest signature Joe?

BTW--he's away until the middle of next week. He has a bite for his boat and he's gone to Maine to clinch the deal.
0 Replies
 
plainoldme
 
  2  
Reply Fri 9 Apr, 2010 11:57 am
@spendius,
Not indignant . . .bored to tears by your persistence which makes you appear more petty and less well educated by the minute. You are such a small man, such a petty individual, that you rant on and on about your alleged height.

Listen, sluggo, I have brought wrath upon my head many times by stating what a risk to life, limb and hymen consenting to have dinner with a right wing man is that I just don't want to hear your false defense of morality being the strong hold of the right.

Most right wingers lack self control and moderation . .. as you demonstrate with your attention craving posts.
plainoldme
 
  1  
Reply Fri 9 Apr, 2010 12:01 pm
@spendius,
He grew very tired of the sluts, the 18-24 year old married women who were so obviously round heeled . . . and the men who could barely keep their flies zipped.

The divorce rate is higher in the Bible Belt than in blue Massachusetts. Generally, there is more extra marital sex in the Bible Belt because marriages are made among younger, less educated people.

A fundamentalist Christian is highly likely to be a hypocrite.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Fri 9 Apr, 2010 01:19 pm
@plainoldme,
Quote:
Not indignant . . .bored to tears by your persistence which makes you appear more petty and less well educated by the minute.


You can't be that bored to keep on going on about my perceived faults. And I know how educated I am and I'm not arsed what you think about that.

Quote:
Listen, sluggo, I have brought wrath upon my head many times by stating what a risk to life, limb and hymen consenting to have dinner with a right wing man is--


I might have guessed. I've been sticking up for Mr Obama's health care reforms and urging he go further.

And don't come that attention craving nonsense. All that shows is that you're stuck for insults. You called me a "little git". You must realise that that grants me the right to insult you back. Of course I won't because I'm well mannered when it comes to ladies.

The weather is a lot warmer in the Bible Belt so there's a lot more bubbling carnality to keep in check. There's nothing so off-putting as cellulite with goosebumps. It reminds one of plucked geese.
0 Replies
 
ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Fri 9 Apr, 2010 06:13 pm
@Joe Nation,
Fun news in the world of science (listened to a great interview with Herr Doktor Hehemann tonight, he sounded remarkably like our ToeMahhs):

Gut bacteria in Japanese people borrowed sushi-digesting genes from ocean bacteria

Quote:
Nori is an extremely common ingredient in Japanese cuisine, used to garnish dishes and wrap sushi. And when hungry diners wolfed down morsels of these algae, some of them also swallowed marine bacteria. Suddenly, this exotic species was thrust among our own gut residents. As the unlikely partners mingled, they traded genes, including those that allow them to break down the carbohydrates of their marine meals. The gut bacteria suddenly gained the ability to exploit an extra source of energy and those that retained their genetic loans prospered.

This incredible genetic voyage from sea to land was charted by Jan-Hendrik Hehemann from the University of Victoria. Hehemann was originally on the hunt for genes that could help bacteria to digest the unique carbohydrates of seaweed, such as porphyran. He had no idea where this quest would eventually lead. Mirjam Czjzek, one of the study leaders, said, “The link to the Japanese human gut bacteria was just a very lucky, opportunistic hit that we clearly had no idea about before starting our project. Like so often in science, chance is a good collaborative fellow!”


<snip>

Quote:
For now, it’s not clear how long these marine genes have been living inside the bowels of the Japanese. People might only gain the genes after eating lots and lots of sushi but Hehemann has some evidence that they could be passed down from parent to child. One of the people he studied was an unweaned baby girl, who had clearly never eaten a mouthful of sushi in her life. And yet, her gut bacteria had a porphyranase gene, just as her mother’s did. We already known that mums can pass on their microbiomes to their children, so if mummy’s gut bacteria can break down seaweed carbs, then baby’s bugs should also be able to.


Quote:
Michel also says that for these genes to become permanent fixtures of the B.plebeius repertoire, the bacterium would have needed a strong evolutionary pressure to keep them. “Daily access to ingested seaweeds as a carbon source” would have provided such a pressure. My weekly nibbles on highly sterile pieces of sushi probably wouldn’t.

That’s one question down; there are many to go. How did the advent of agriculture or cooking affect this genetic bonanza? How is the Western style of hyper-hygienic, processed and mass-produced food doing so now? As different styles of cuisines spread all over the globe, will our bacterial passengers also become more genetically uniform?

The only way to get more answers is to accelerate our efforts to sequence different gut microbiomes. Let’s take a look at those of other human populations, including hunter-gatherers. Let’s peer into fossilised or mummified stool samples left behind by our ancestors. Let’s look inside the intestines of our closest relatives, the great apes. These investigations will tell us more about the intestinal genetic trade that has surely played a big role in our evolution.

Rob Knight, a microbiome researcher from the University of Colorado, agrees. “This result reinforces the need to conduct a broad and culturally diverse survey of who harbours what microbes. The key to understanding obesity or IBD might well be in genes or microbes acquired under circumstances very different to those we experience in Western society.”



love love love science
rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Fri 9 Apr, 2010 07:09 pm
@ehBeth,
Cool stuff. Smile Thanks.
0 Replies
 
Joe Nation
 
  1  
Reply Fri 9 Apr, 2010 07:31 pm
@Beth: very cool.

And another instance which shows the march of investigation, rather than mystification, leads humanity's quest for knowledge.

@ spends: No, sir, 'tis yourself who miss-spoke yourself re: the great act of forgiving or retaining sin, not I. Next I suppose from your long dull history, you will protest that you were merely jesting about the clean slate every week. Nah. Don't even try. It's a shame that you have put yourself forward as the champion of Catholicism because now they are led, not by a Knight of Columbus, but by a knave of misapprehension.

Call the rectory. See if anyone not sleeping with a thirteen old is available to discuss the dangers of evolution.

Joe(If no answer, try the swimming pools and basketball courts)Nation
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Sat 10 Apr, 2010 03:15 am
@Joe Nation,
Too easy Joe. Do you really think I couldn't do that sort of thing if I was prepared to lower myself to such degrading depths. Anybody can do it. Goebbels perfected the technique. I should think any profession with 400,000 members could supply a number of examples. School caretakers, taxi drivers, sports coaches and the like.

The abiding prurient fascination is a better guide. Some people will look under stones to satisfy their urge to talk about such matters. I suppose it takes their mind off differential infant mortality rates, Bhopal, Faluga and sweat shop labour and gets them onto to something simpler and more suited to their purposes.

You're a discredit to the side of the debate you purport to represent. You're off topic.


0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Sat 10 Apr, 2010 03:51 am
@ehBeth,
Quote:
The key to understanding obesity or IBD might well be in genes or microbes acquired under circumstances very different to those we experience in Western society.”


That should be popular with obese people I should think. Giving them a scientific explanation that being obese is not their own fault. Luverly.

 

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