17
   

States' Rights advocates on a roll these days

 
 
wandeljw
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Mar, 2010 09:46 am
I think it would be interesting to track some of these proposed bills where states are trying to opt out of the new federal healthcare reform. Although many proposed bills never go anywhere, Florida's Republican-controlled state legislature has just proposed one:

Quote:
Florida proposal challenges federal health care plan
(ASSOCIATED PRESS, March 22, 2010)


TALLAHASSEE " Floridians could opt out of the federal health care overhaul plan under a ballot proposal being considered by the Republican-controlled state Legislature.

The proposed state constitutional amendment (HJR 37) is going before a House committee Monday. It would need 60 percent voter approval if it gets on the November ballot.

The amendment would prohibit anyone including employers from being forced to participate in the federal system President Barack Obama is expected to sign into law.

The U.S. House passed the legislation Sunday over unanimous opposition from Republicans. It would extend coverage to 32 million uninsured Americans, reduce deficits and ban insurers from denying coverage to people with pre-existing conditions.
teenyboone
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Mar, 2010 10:42 am
@wandeljw,
This prompts 2 questions:
1. Why are we called the United States?
2. If a Federal Law is passed, what's the point if certain residents don't follow the law?
wandeljw
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Mar, 2010 11:01 am
@teenyboone,
Some politicians want to assert independent state powers concerning some issues. In general, if a state law conflicts with a federal law, federal law would take priority.
0 Replies
 
joefromchicago
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Mar, 2010 11:23 am
@teenyboone,
teenyboone wrote:

This prompts 2 questions:
1. Why are we called the United States?

It was the result of a major rebranding effort in the 1870s. Prior to that, it was called "Guapo's Mexican Cantina." Market researchers conducted surveys which found that consumers considered the name "confusing," and many foreign respondents noted that the name made it "hard to take you guys seriously."

teenyboone wrote:
2. If a Federal Law is passed, what's the point if certain residents don't follow the law?

Your logic is, I'm afraid, unassailable.
High Seas
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Mar, 2010 12:18 pm
@joefromchicago,
joefromchicago wrote:

There is a popular belief that, because everyone can read the constitution, everyone is therefore capable of interpreting the constitution. I do not subscribe to such lamentably Protestant notions.

Agree emphatically in re required constitutional erudition, and wouldn't dream of arguing with yours; but in what way are such notions "Protestant"? In the interest of full disclosure the very first church I remember as a child was Calvin's own cathedral in Geneva - they always had the most wonderful organ recitals of oeuvres by Bach, Monteverdi, Albinoni, Scarlatti - they even sometimes played Mozart's "La Fille du Regiment", not an easy tune for organ, let alone for ecclesiastical venues - and once, just once, they played the overture of Die Meistersinger von Nuernberg, which made me fall in love with Wagner forever after. Catholic churches - as well as Orthodox - also have wonderful singing and music, so I'd appreciate a clarification - thanks!
High Seas
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Mar, 2010 12:28 pm
@High Seas,
PS I do of course know basics of Calvin's teaching, such as that anyone who can read the Bible is also capable of understanding it, so there's no need for "interpreters" whenever anyone desires to talk to his god. I do however also recall someone saying ".. if the people aren't sufficiently educated to understand the constitution then they must be educated" - not verbatim, but I'm fairly certain words to that effect are in the Federalist Papers somewhere.
0 Replies
 
dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Mar, 2010 12:37 pm
@joefromchicago,
Quote:
"Guapo's Mexican Cantina."
now Joe that's just plain silly, everyone knows what is now called the United States was called VespucciLand.
joefromchicago
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Mar, 2010 12:39 pm
@High Seas,
I identified it as a "lamentably Protestant notion" because it was the Protestants who came up with the idea that everyone was capable of interpreting the bible on their own, in contrast to the Catholics, who rather sensibly left that task to the experts.
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Mar, 2010 12:53 pm
@joefromchicago,
joefromchicago wrote:

There is a popular belief that, because everyone can read the constitution, everyone is therefore capable of interpreting the constitution. I do not subscribe to such lamentably Protestant notions.

It's not just a Protestant notion, it's an Enlightenment notion too. Remember the Enlightenment? Immanuel Kant once described its maxim as follows: "Have courage to use your own reason without instructions from others".

This notion is not the problem. The problem is that some people, having found the courage to decline instructions from others, then forget that the next step is to use reason, let alone reading comprehension.
High Seas
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Mar, 2010 01:05 pm
@joefromchicago,
joefromchicago wrote:

I identified it as a "lamentably Protestant notion" because it was the Protestants who came up with the idea that everyone was capable of interpreting the bible on their own, in contrast to the Catholics, who rather sensibly left that task to the experts.

That may or may not be the case for texts presumed to originate with some supernatural authority, but in the immortal words of Conan Doyle "anything above nature is certainly above me". Better leave the Bible, the Koran, etc, out of it. This thread is about understanding the US Constitution, right?
wandeljw
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Mar, 2010 01:11 pm
@Thomas,
Thomas wrote:

joefromchicago wrote:

There is a popular belief that, because everyone can read the constitution, everyone is therefore capable of interpreting the constitution. I do not subscribe to such lamentably Protestant notions.

It's not just a Protestant notion, it's an Enlightenment notion too. Remember the Enlightenment? Immanuel Kant once described its maxim as follows: "Have courage to use your own reason without instructions from others".

This notion is not the problem. The problem is that some people, having found the courage to decline instructions from others, then forget that the next step is to use reason, let alone reading comprehension.


However, Thomas, the leaders of the Protestant Reformation were generally anti-reason, particularly Martin Luther.

Quote:
Reason is the Devil's greatest whore; by nature and manner of being she is a noxious whore; she is a prostitute, the Devil's appointed whore; whore eaten by scab and leprosy who ought to be trodden under foot and destroyed, she and her wisdom ... Throw dung in her face to make her ugly. She is and she ought to be drowned in baptism... She would deserve, the wretch, to be banished to the filthiest place in the house, to the closets.
Martin Luther, Erlangen Edition v. 16, pp. 142-148


The idea is that reason undermines God's authority.

(i am being pseudo-intellectual. this is off-topic. but joefromchicago started it!)
High Seas
 
  0  
Reply Mon 22 Mar, 2010 01:14 pm
@wandeljw,
Blah, blah, blah - you're no ecclesiastical scholar any more than you're a constitutional scholar. Could we please keep Luther quotes for religion threads, and stick to "States' Rights ....." etc, aka the topic here?!
wandeljw
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Mar, 2010 01:16 pm
@High Seas,
do you have a sense of humor?
High Seas
 
  0  
Reply Mon 22 Mar, 2010 01:17 pm
@wandeljw,
Yes, I do, how about you? Smile
wandeljw
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Mar, 2010 01:18 pm
@High Seas,
i have a very obscure sense of humor, as does joefromchicago Smile
djjd62
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Mar, 2010 01:19 pm
@wandeljw,
and high seas has none
0 Replies
 
High Seas
 
  0  
Reply Mon 22 Mar, 2010 01:24 pm
@wandeljw,
Obscure? Is that the right term? Subterranean? Gothic? Dark? No, I don't believe Joe shares that attitude, at least on constitutional matters Smile
0 Replies
 
wandeljw
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Mar, 2010 01:49 pm
Quote:
Hoyer: Virginia Can’t Skirt Health Mandate
(By Naftali Bendavid, The Wall Street Journal, March 16, 2010)

House Majority Leader Steny Hoyer doesn’t think much of Virginia’s move to block Congress from requiring individuals to buy health insurance.

The requirement for individual coverage is central to the Democrats’ health overhaul. Expanding the pool of insured people in this way"sweeping in healthy people who don’t need much coverage"is necessary to get costs down and impose new rules on insurance companies, supporters say.

But opposition to the “individual mandate” has become a rallying cry of the overhaul’s critics, who say it’s wrong and possibly unconstitutional for the government to order its citizens to buy something. Virginia recently became the first state to enact a statute saying its residents would not have to obey such a law.

Hoyer said today that a state cannot overrule a legitimate federal statute. “What if Virginia passes a law saying you don’t have to obey the antitrust laws?” the Maryland Democrat said. “I think it’s the same proposition, and we’ll have to see whether they can do that…They could pass laws saying you don’t have to do a lot of things, not just this.”

He added, “If that premise were correct, what would be the effectiveness of having a federal government? We’re a federal government because the federal government does certain things to make sure that America works well. Virginia’s responsibility is to make sure Virginia works well.”

The debate over the individual mandate has raged for some time. Supporters say the government has the constitutional authority to regulate areas related to interstate commerce, including the health care industry. Others compare it to states requiring their citizens to buy auto insurance.

As for health care, Hoyer said broadening the population of those who are insured is a key part of reducing the nation’s medical expenses. “Clearly, if you’re going to bring down costs, the only way you bring down costs in an insurance program is to spread the risks,” he said.
0 Replies
 
joefromchicago
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Mar, 2010 03:04 pm
@Thomas,
Thomas wrote:
It's not just a Protestant notion, it's an Enlightenment notion too. Remember the Enlightenment? Immanuel Kant once described its maxim as follows: "Have courage to use your own reason without instructions from others".

Another Protestant.
0 Replies
 
joefromchicago
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Mar, 2010 03:09 pm
@dyslexia,
dyslexia wrote:

Quote:
"Guapo's Mexican Cantina."
now Joe that's just plain silly, everyone knows what is now called the United States was called VespucciLand.

That was before it was called "Guapo's Mexican Cantina." Cripes, what did they teach you in school anyway?
 

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