17
   

States' Rights advocates on a roll these days

 
 
Merry Andrew
 
  1  
Reply Wed 17 Mar, 2010 11:16 am
@Setanta,
The Dick Act was passed in 1903, specifically repealing the Militia Act of 1792. It effectively put the various state mliatias and state guards squarely under the control of the Dept. of Defense.
0 Replies
 
wandeljw
 
  1  
Reply Wed 17 Mar, 2010 11:17 am
Glenn Beck, on his radio program, had a meeting of the minds with Chuck Norris on this very issue:
Quote:
GLENN: Americans will, they just, they won't stand for it. There will be parts of the country that will rise up. And they said, where's that going to come from? And I said Texas, it's going to come from Texas. Do you agree with that, Chuck, or not?

NORRIS: Oh, yeah. You know, Texas is a republic, you know. We could actually --

GLENN: It was a country before it was a state.

NORRIS: Yeah, we could break off from the union if we wanted to.

GLENN: You do, you call me.

NORRIS: Oh, yeah.

GLENN: Seriously, you do. I don't mind having that lone star on my flag. I really don't mind it. I've been out with a seam ripper looking at my flag going, I don't know, California could go. I'm just saying --

NORRIS: I may run for president of Texas. (Laughing).
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Wed 17 Mar, 2010 11:24 am
@maporsche,
Quote:
didn't say that I thought it was possible....just that it should be.


So you would wish to grant some right wing state legislator the right to take away your US citizenship at their whim because it is your misfortune to be living in a backward state?

Sorry we are one nation and the states of just governing sub-dividends of that nation and have zero rights either legally or morally to leave the union.

Interesting and amusing side note the Confederate Constitution had in it that it member’s states could not leave it union as they was trying to leave the US.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Wed 17 Mar, 2010 11:27 am
@maporsche,
maporsche wrote:

Yeah...there's that whole 2nd Amendment right getting in the way.

I want federal law to prevail regarding everything in the consitution. But I also think that states should be allowed to leave the union if they so choose.


No way! We've invested heavily in the future of the US as a whole, with tremendous amounts of ALL of our tax dollars going to citizens in other states. They don't just get to cut and run because they have a few reactionaries in office.

I'm not sure you've really thought this through...

Cycloptichorn
BillRM
 
  2  
Reply Wed 17 Mar, 2010 11:34 am
@wandeljw,
I just can see it now Texas leaves the union and Norris became the Texas President and two weeks later the Mexican army invaded and Texas is once more part of the Republic of Mexico.

Lord would that not be a great laugh for the rest of the US?

0 Replies
 
joefromchicago
 
  3  
Reply Wed 17 Mar, 2010 11:40 am
@Setanta,
Setanta wrote:
I'm not claiming that the rights states might claim under the tenth amendment trump all Federal powers. It is however, a subject for reasonable judicial debate, and with the current Court, it is not at all certain that the Federal government would automatically win every case.

Nope, I'm with Thomas on this one: there's no reasonable argument to be made in favor of these efforts at "nullification." As far as I can tell, these states aren't asserting that the federal government has overstepped its authority and has infringed on some exclusive state prerogative guaranteed by the tenth amendment, they're just saying that they don't like a particular law and want to be exempt from it. That argument is unavailing in light of the constitution's supremacy clause.
maporsche
 
  1  
Reply Wed 17 Mar, 2010 11:40 am
@Cycloptichorn,
I'm not proposing that it should be as easy as passing a simple majority vote. But there should be a 5-15 year process for removing your state from the union. I don't think it would be decision a state should be allowed to take lightly; it would need to be an involved well thought out process.

Denouncing your citizenship from the US should be much easier too. As it stands, it's very complicated and difficult.
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Wed 17 Mar, 2010 11:45 am
@maporsche,
maporsche wrote:

I'm not proposing that it should be as easy as passing a simple majority vote. But there should be a 5-15 year process for removing your state from the union. I don't think it would be decision a state should be allowed to take lightly; it would need to be an involved well thought out process.

Denouncing your citizenship from the US should be much easier too. As it stands, it's very complicated and difficult.


Nope. I don't care what timeline you want to put on it; we don't allow it. Sorry. Just as an individual city can't declare themselves sovereign from the state they are in, so is our country indivisible.

Last time this was attempted, the rebels got slapped down good. No need to go through a repeat.

Let me ask, why do you think this should be allowed? What possible benefit does it bring us?

Cycloptichorn
maporsche
 
  1  
Reply Wed 17 Mar, 2010 11:57 am
@Cycloptichorn,
If you got rid of all those red-states Cyclops you could pass a much better healthcare bill, no?

What do we lose? Presumably the people in the states that would leave would have paid enough in taxes, etc to cover their fair share of what they received (and if not, that can be part of the 5-15 year plan).

Countries are split up, merged, etc all the time. I don't know why it shouldn't be allowed here.


It would make no difference to me. People that don't want to contribute, don't want to be part of the US, should be allowed to leave.




And the time it was attempted before the Civil war the US won it's independence. These things do work both ways you know.

But, I don't want a Civil war, which is why I think there should be an orderly process that a state would go through to do this. During which time they'd progressively lose federal benefits, progressively pay less federal taxes, etc.
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Wed 17 Mar, 2010 12:02 pm
@maporsche,
maporsche wrote:

If you got rid of all those red-states Cyclops you could pass a much better healthcare bill, no?


No, because the US doesn't function as a whole entity by 'getting rid of red states.' It's also completely unworkable, as these states are interspersed with other states; we would have a few dozen geographically isolated states within our borders. No thanks.

Quote:
What do we lose? Presumably the people in the states that would leave would have paid enough in taxes, etc to cover their fair share of what they received (and if not, that can be part of the 5-15 year plan).


There is no possible way for any state to repay the amount which has been spent on them. None. I don't think you realize the amounts of money which are involved here.

Quote:
Countries are split up, merged, etc all the time. I don't know why it shouldn't be allowed here.


'All the time?' No, that's incorrect. It's actually exceedingly rare and it almost never happens without extreme violence. Is that what you want?

It isn't 'allowed' anywhere. It happens by force.

Quote:
It would make no difference to me. People that don't want to contribute, don't want to be part of the US, should be allowed to leave.


Anyone who wants to leave the US is perfectly free to. You just can't take a part of our country with you.

I can tell you this - if a state were to seriously attempt to declare themselves sovereign and leave the country, I'd sign up in a cold second to join the army and kill those ******* traitors.

I know you're just blue-skying here, but you ought to think your proposal through a little more thoroughly.

Cycloptichorn
maporsche
 
  1  
Reply Wed 17 Mar, 2010 12:10 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
I have to admit that I haven't sat down and done a CBA or thourough analaysis on the pros/cons, but conceptually I really don't have a problem with it.

And when I look at a map from the 40s/50s or even the 80s; there are quite a few new countries that didn't exist. Sure, many brought on by wars, but we're better than that aren't we?
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Wed 17 Mar, 2010 12:13 pm
@maporsche,
maporsche wrote:

I have to admit that I haven't sat down and done a CBA or thourough analaysis on the pros/cons, but conceptually I really don't have a problem with it.

And when I look at a map from the 40s/50s or even the 80s; there are quite a few new countries that didn't exist. Sure, many brought on by wars, but we're better than that aren't we?


What ever gave you the idea that 'we are better then that?' I assure you that it's not a question of 'being better' than anything. When people within a country rebel, the appropriate response is to slap the rebels down, not to say 'oh okay fine, take a huge section of our land and money away from our control.' That's completely unrealistic.

Cycloptichorn
maporsche
 
  1  
Reply Wed 17 Mar, 2010 12:16 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Take THEIR land and THEIR money Cyclops. States are supposed to have some autonomy (even though I don't necessarily agree that they do).

Texas probably pays more into the federal government than it get back. The rest of the 49 states are taking THEIR money.


Again, conceptually I'm not opposed to it.
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Wed 17 Mar, 2010 12:21 pm
@maporsche,
maporsche wrote:

Take THEIR land and THEIR money Cyclops. States are supposed to have some autonomy (even though I don't necessarily agree).

Texas probably pays more into the federal government than it get back. The rest of the 49 states are taking THEIR money.

Again, conceptually I'm not opposed to it.


I just don't think you've explored the ramifications of the concept enough to understand the chaos it would cause for our nation, and how it would hurt the lives of everyone involved - including you.

Cycloptichorn
maporsche
 
  1  
Reply Wed 17 Mar, 2010 12:22 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Agreed and admitted.
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Wed 17 Mar, 2010 12:27 pm
@maporsche,
maporsche wrote:

Agreed and admitted.


Fair enough. That being said, I understand the attraction of this idea; I just think that we need to attempt to work together more rather then say **** it and split in pieces.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Wed 17 Mar, 2010 01:25 pm
@joefromchicago,
Well, i wasn't saying that Thomas was wrong and that i'm right. I was just playing devil's advocate, and offering the arguments i've heard from states rights proponents. I also don't claim to be expert in legal matters.
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Wed 17 Mar, 2010 01:29 pm
@Setanta,
Setanta wrote:
The constitution does not prohibit the condemnation of land under eminent domain.

That's true so far; the state can take property for public use. But notice that the specific jokers in this article don't just want to condemn any old plot of land. They specifically want to condemn federal lands -- which, ipso facto, are in public use already.

Setanta wrote:
The constitution is mute on the subject of health care, and advocates of Federal jurisdiction in such a matter can only point to the feeble "promote the general welfare" clause from the preamble.

Not true. The power of Congress to "to provide for the general welfare of the United States" is not just in the preamble. It's one of the explicitly enumerated powers under article 1, section 8 of the constitution. Does that clause cover Obama's healthcare reform? It certainly does if it covers Social Security, Medicaid, and Medicare. On Social Security, ever since the 1930s, the Supreme Court has repeatedly held that the General Welfare clause gave Congress the right to enact it. (See Helvering v. Davis and the cases cited in it.) As to Medicare and Medicaid -- although teabaggers make a lot of noise about them being unconstitutional, no legal challenge ever even reached the Supreme Court. (Says Google Scholar -- I"m willing to be corrected.) Hence, the constitutionality of Obama's healthcare reform is so well-established that no Supreme Court judge, not even Clarence Thomas, will touch it.

Setanta wrote:
The issue of National Guardsmen is difficult, since Congress is granted the power to call out the militia--but it is only given that power in order to repel invasions, enforce the law and suppress insurrections.

The constitution doesn't say "enforce the law". It says "execute the laws of the Union". The Authorization for Use of Military Force Against Iraq Resolution of 2002 is a "law of the Union", which Congress "executed" by mobilizing the militia. Again, that's an explicitly delegated power of Congress.

Your attempts to play advocatus diaboli only reinforces a dictum of America's great philosopher Robert Zimmerman:"You don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows". You don't need a constitutional lawyer to know that the politicians in this article are as kooky as flat-Earthers. All you need is a copy of the constitution and general reading comprehension. The New York Times' headline might as well have been: "Shape of the Earth: Views differ".
0 Replies
 
roger
 
  1  
Reply Wed 17 Mar, 2010 01:32 pm
It kind of looks like we are trying to have it both ways. Force Illinois to accept federal firearms law, while trying to keep the federal governments grimy paws out of South Dakota, Montana, and Utah. I have trouble arguing both ways. At the same time, I mean.
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Wed 17 Mar, 2010 01:35 pm
I have no brief to defend the New York Times, but we can take a folk lore source at least as good as Mr. Zimmerman, and point out that one swallow does not a summer make. So while i bow to the authority of Joe's opinion in a matter such as this (as opposed to yours), i still don't think you've made a case for the vacuous cupidity of the editorial policies of the Times.
 

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