How/why did bread and milk become "evil" foods?

Soz -- I saw a bit of that food writer you like on TV the other day (recognized the name at the time, can't remember it now) and he gave some statistic like "we used to spend 25% of our income on food and 10% of our income on health care, now we spend 10% of our income on food and 25% on healthcare".

I thought that was so interesting.

Those weren't the exact statistics but they aren't too far off either.

The longer a cow lactates the more likely she is to develop mastitis, and after a while production starts to fall off in spite of feed and regular milking. (Most high production herds milk three times a day now, not two, by the way.)

Whether or not it's natural or not to drink another species' milk, it is unusual for an adult animal (or an adult human, for that matter) to consume milk as a regular part of the diet. The enzyme that digests lactose isn't present in the digestive tract of virtually any adult animal or in the majority of adult humans. And since people without this enzyme in their small intestine can't digest the lactose, it reaches the large intestine intact where it is fermented by the bacteria that live there -- resulting in large amounts of gas production, cramping, etc.

The term "lactose intolerant" carries a certain amount of inherent cultural chauvinism, as it connotes pathology whereas the continued expression of the enzyme into adulthood is the abnormal condition.

That said, I've got the enzyme, and I use it. (Can't stand to actually drink milk on its own, though. Ugh.)

Thank you patiodog. That is not only interesting, it makes perfect sense.

Michael Pollan... yep, that's familiar, that's certainly the gist if not the exact numbers.

Good explanation, patiodog. Reminds me I have a question for you, but will ask on the feral cat thread...

Yes it is, in podunk, or podunk parts of cities across the u.s. and likely other places. Just yesterday I spent ten minutes trying to figure out which soft bread to purchase, and walked away.

It's easy to do in your own kitchen if you have the information, but artisan bread is taken as a foodie snobbery. I'm so old... (fill in blank)... that I existed and was interested in food pre foodie. I'd love to see real bread makers pop up all over the world and crush the Wonder Bread derivatives, marketwise... and see people doing it, yes, yes, at home.
Nancy Silverton has been instrumental, re information, and has been experimental.. but her instructions in the first LA Times article I read many years ago took up a lot of column space. Only the most persevering followed at the time.

Jim Fahey, with his no-knead dough tryouts/his bakery, give, uh, power to the people. Not sure that is what he meant, he was zoning in on bread baking.
I don't mean that he claims to be the first.. I don't know that history. He's the one who worked it up and got it noticed.

Well, that was useful, thank, pd.

I have bought hormone free milk for at least a dozen years. Kids would come to my house to visit my kids, drink the milk and ask their mothers to buy the same kind as it was better than the stuff they drank at home.

i baked bread for close to 20 years but stopped for several reasons and am trying to re-establish the habit. It is difficult because I work seven days/week. I also live in an area where there are great bakeries.

I can buy milk straight from the farm, without hormones, in glass bottles. In summer, when I have time, I go to a farm that is further out where I can buy raw milk. It's delicious.

The raw milk farmer feeds pastures his cows but has to feed them hay in the winter. He practices milk sharing which means that calves are left with their mothers and nurse as human babies do, when they are hungry. The calves are put into the barn at night while the moms stay outside (they are winter hardy Canadiennes and a French breed whose name escapes me). Moms are milked in the morning and then mothers and calves spend the day on pasture.

BTW, the mothers teach their babies about electric fences and poisonous plants which means lower vet bills.

The farmer also makes yogurt, which, by definition, is not a raw milk product. Due to high demand, and to the fact that his cows are dry during the winter, they have joined with several other small-scale farmers (4 - 16 cows) who grass feed and avoid hormones. All the farmers are making more money than they would selling to the big dairies. This farmer is an economic lynch pin in his small town.

Finally, the farmer who started this has only two acres of land. He rents several portions. One is a large, mountain top meadow. The rent is gallons of milk/week which the landowner churns into butter which the farmer sells on a honor system from a shed on his land.

Take that, capitalist land-destroying cow-abusing hormone-pumping dairies!

Here is an interesting web site: http://familycow.proboards.com/index.cgi?

That should read: THe rent is two gallons of milk/week.

I think that it's just a question of demand:

a lot of small bakeries were closed here, we just got braches from big "industrial" bakeries, mainly.

But since years that has changed. (Though you'll don't find very one baker of one single shop.)
People want to know what kind of flour is used, where it's from - even those cheap bakeries which just bake deep frozen products are keen on the quality.
(But you really don't need four baker shops we've got now in our place ... with 4,000 inhabitants.)

And baking at home? With prepared ingredients from the supermarket?
More and more people go to the local mills (or organic [farm] shops) to buy their flour. (The smallish local mill hadn't survived of this trend hadn't started.)

its quite simple.
Cows nurse baby cows.
Humans nurse baby humans.
The milk their bodies and ours produce is the perfect enzyme, protein, calcium ( etc etc) balance for the bodies of their and our young. That way the babies can absorb and process the milk exactly how their body needs to , to get 100% of what they can from it. We need a certain amount of fats to absorb certain vitamins appropriately, and certain amounts of protein to digest certain other vitamins. When the balance is off a lot of it just slips right through our bodies or is not absorbed ENOUGH causing a deficiency. That balance and that necessity for fats , enzymes and vitamins is not a universal combination. Meaning, not all babies and bodies take the same amount, the same kind, the same way.
Digestive enzymes in each species are different as well. Obviously. Look at the diets. We can not live on grasses alone. We could not derive the perfect amount of protein for our bodies on just grass alone. We need larger amounts with different fats . We need nuts, beans and some animal protein. Cows dont eat animal protein. I doubt they are big nut eaters and MIGHT eat a bean. Their body is just not made the same way and needs different requirements for them to be able to get what they need from what they eat. Their milk will reflect THEIR bodies need. Not ours.

Cow milk is not intended for baby humans. This is a propaganda from marketing but not a point that this thread is about.
Milk from animals, as i said, is NOT bad for you. Drink up. Its also not bad for babies. Im not saying that real milk is bad. Im also not referring to it hurting cows or any other peta style arguement.
My point is that it does not provide all the nutrients we are lead to believe it does ( as patio dog explained in a much simpler way) because of how our bodies use enzymes to digest food. And that the highly commercialized version of milk today is actually pretty bad for you.

Unfortunately , explaining that is fighting against a lot of national advertising that has drilled into people that milk is important and a necessary part of our diet.

One thing most people do not know is that american milk is banned in many countries because of its chemical content.

I . LOVE. MILK dont hear me say other wise. Im not saying dont drink it, im explaining why some people may choose to avoid it and why its the TYPE and the PROCESS thats the 'evil' here.. not the milk itself.
I buy it right from the farm, no processing .. nothing. I think that if people really do enjoy their milk thats how they should get it. Much safer that way and SOOOOO awesome tasting. Much healthier for your body too.

But I understand how some parents are uncomfortable with their kids drinking it and have made that choice to stay away from it.

Sadly , as I begin to meet more and more parents ( Kindergarten) I DO see a lot of parents yelling about foods and drinks with no real knowledge behind the decision and DO take on that " im better than you because of what I eat" attitude and its such a big ball of **** I dont even know what to do with it.
Lactose intolerance (which Jillian had as a baby in a horrible way), is real. Once i learned that she had it, I begun my research into milk, why she couldnt drink it ( thinking everyone had to) and I learned a lot. She doesnt drink it now, but can eat it when I cook with it. But I know now that milk is not a necessity in a diet so its Ok.
Celiac disease is also very real and it comes from gluten intolerance. It is often called IBS ( irritable bowel syndrome) and only repaired with a gluten free diet. Again, the process in which a lot of breads are made now is leaving the human body incapable of digesting it. It isnt the bread that is bad, it is HOW it is being made and what is added to it.

Real raw wheat is not bad for the body. At all. It has nutrients we should be eating. But when you take it to a factory, add many man made chemicals to it, bleach it with in an inch of its life, rehydrate it with salt based preservatives and saturate it with things like HFCS , you have a chemical reaction that makes peoples bodies hurt. It is becoming more and more common because that is how bread is being made more and MORE often. We have corn and wheat in everything. Thats too much. Just like the cows in popular farms and daries are being fed the wrong foods ( corn and tons of it) it sits in their bodies being unable to be absorbed and causing all kinds of infections.
It is similar to people with allergies to bread. it isnt the actual wheat thats the problem, it is what is being DONE to it and ADDED to it that we are reacting too, unable to process and having allergic type reactions too.
For some people, this isnt an issue. But for others it can mean death.
I have a friend whos daughter can NOT in any way shape or form com in contact with wheat. It causes her airway to restrict and she has suffocated before. It is an extreme.. yes.but its true. She even reacts to some clothes! Amazing where you find 'food' these days.

Unfortunately , the helicopter parents of today who run around toting about being vegan , macrobiotic, lacto ovo-vegeatarian, annorexic , bulemic, i wontevensmellit diets dont always get it. They use it as a leverage over other parents to some how boost themselves above everyone else when all they are teaching their child is to obsess over food. Dangerous in its own right.

but.. thats just my personal reasons for avoiding commercial milk and most breads, shopping like you do , getting right from a bakery or other small store where it is made by hand instead of in a lab.

I have tried to go the 'vegan veg wont eat anything with out this this and this " route. Total waste of time. Amazing how easy it was to be led to believe something that just wasnt true.

real, raw foods, veggies, fruits, nuts, fish, beans, rice, cheeses, is as healthy as you can get. The issue is the chemicals. Not carbs. Not even REAL sugar. its chemicals. But avoiding those is pretty easy too.

Milk is great, used to take a jug from the vat after the early morning milking. Lavishly pouring it over my muesli for the fullest flavored milk you ever did taste.

And bread, OH! I love bread, so versatile.

Milk and bread evil? What has become of the world?

The only reason that it's painful for cows to go unmilked is because humans have bred them to produce much more milk than they have to.
In that respect, we are the sole cause of that pain.

Cows of some sort were around long before man decided to exploit their milk producing abilities, and they didn't go through any more pain than a human mother does when she needs to feed her baby, or is weaning.

Kittens suckling from dogs, lambs suckling from a horse, etc...sure that happens, but it that optimum?
Don't you think some of those orphaned baby animals have problems tolerating the milk of another species?

All female mammels can produce milk, but that doesn't mean all milk is interchangeable.

At some point, it was discovered that most people can tolerate cows milk, but is it just as good for human babies as human milk is? Of course not. If that were the case, we never would have developed baby formula, which I suppose more accurately mimics human milk.

If we had wanted to, we could have bred dogs to produce much more milk they they need, and we could very well be drinking that today.
But, since dogs have a very different personality than cows, we realized we could exploit the dogs hunting, protecting abilities, and let the more placid bovine feed us what was obviously intended just for their young.

Does it gross you out, even just a little bit, to think of sitting down to a nice warm glass of hyena milk, or bat, raccoon, or possum milk when you can't get to sleep?
That's just because we are used to the good old cow, or goat, or sheep.
If we were used to drinking rat milk, getting it from a cow would sound gross.

That's why I say cow's milk is for baby cows. Because squirrel milk is for baby squirrels, porcupine milk is for baby porcupines, and elephant milk is for baby elephants.

That's why some people don't tolerant cow milk, because we weren't designed to drink it, although most people can.

BTW, dairy cows have an absolutely horrible life.
They babies are taken from them within hours of them being born, their udders get infected, their bodies get worn out from producing gallons upon gallons of milk each day (the average dairy cow produces over 50 pounds of milk a day)
They are used and used and used, living just a few years, then, when we use them all up, they get slaughtered.

mmmmm. hamburgers.

This thread reminds me of an article I read last week about the chef at Klee Brasserie (never dined there, but have read great reviews), who used the abundant excess of his wife's breast milk to make cheese. He ended up serving it to his customers (eww, eww, eww LOL)...but when they profiled him on NBC's Today Show, they couldn't get any of the crew to try any.

Here's the article (pretty funny in spots):

With his wife on board with the plan to offer a bit of herself in the name of culinary art, Angerer began experimenting with making cheese out of his wife’s breast milk. Turned out it worked pretty well " two gallons of breast milk, some curdling and two weeks of aging produced a sweet cheese with a taste not far removed from the more familiar cow’s milk cheese.

No, they did! I happened to see that, some guy who came in late ate it without realizing what it was, then was told and merrily continued to eat it, to much consternation and laughter from the staff.

Oh wait that wasn't the Today Show, it was whatever the Hoda and Kathie Lee thing is (is that the Today Show or not? it was on TV when I was at the gym).



Meanwhile, I don't think anyone's saying that cow milk is better than human milk for baby humans. (Certainly not me -- human milk is better for baby humans, full stop.) Just, that at some point in our history we humans started drinking non-human milk (not all of us and not all cultures) and those that did usually have the enzyme for digesting cow milk. Cow milk has good stuff in it, if not as much good stuff as the milk industry would like us to believe. I don't think people MUST drink cow milk but I don't think it's evil either. Especially the no-hormone organic stuff.

I'll wager that much of what we eat is less "optimum" than cow's milk.

Dogs and horses are considered food in much of the world. I doubt people would be too opposed to drinking their milk as well.

I also completely "get" these ethical arguments. If someone is really concerned about where their food comes from they have a lot of options to buy ethical food.

In fact, if ethical considerations were Woman's issue I'll bet that a Cuban bowl is less ethical than a piece of bread. Or a glass of milk.

Boomer, next time I'm in your town I'll drink a glass of milk and lock you in a room with me for 10 hours. That ought to convince you that lactose intolerance is real. <grin>

Having said that, I am fully grown. I do believe that kids should be drinking plenty of some sort of milk or milk product (cheese and yogurt).

I NEVER said that lactose intolerance isn't real.

I said that I do think many people fake that their kids are allergic to stuff for some weird reason. If no-bread ladies kid was allergic to bread, and he'd been sneaking down and eating a bunch of bread, she would have figured it out without having to be told by the guy working at the food cart.

My neighbor says her son is allergic to every kind of food and now that he's 11 he's calling her bluff on it. He's tried the supposed allergy foods elsewhere and knows he isn't allergic. It's not pretty what is happening at their house!

Sorry, I was just joking around. I agree with the controlling parent thing. See it in all sorts of ways at school.

ok, I fold. I didn't ask before, but since a Cuban bowl in my life is a type of drum, and most google references to Cuban bowls are about drums - what exactly is a Cuban bowl in your community.