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DECLINES IN FISH STOCKS WORLDWIDE_the ecology of exinction

 
 
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Wed 17 Mar, 2010 06:07 pm
@spendius,
Quote:
But what's 25 square miles. The area of ocean is not far off 200 million square miles. That looks like a local investment to keep a local industry going. It's an eighth millionth of the surface of ocean and probably shallower than most of it. And near at hand. Possibly politically sensitive like the pH in a pork barrel is to the type of lumber the cooper used.
that's 25 years and $15 billion spent which has resulted in almost nothing. The program is admitted by the Fed's as a failure, thus Obama last year reforming it.
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Wed 17 Mar, 2010 06:17 pm
@spendius,
Quote:
But what's 25 square miles. The area of ocean is not far off 200 million square miles. That looks like a local investment to keep a local industry going. It's an eighth millionth of the surface of ocean and probably shallower than most of it. And near at hand. Possibly politically sensitive like the pH in a pork barrel is to the type of lumber the cooper used.


Better watch it spendi, you are dangerously close to disagreeing with your mentee.

Quote:
Tell me fm--you said the boats cost millions as did also the rigs--given that money already spent what is the cost of mounting an expedition to catch fish. The cost of boat and rigs is yesterday's cold potatoes isn't it? Would going out tomorrow imply a confidence that fish stocks in the ocean were not as much in decline as some people, for whatever reason, were claiming them to be.
A fishing boat is a depreciating asset and , what with seasons clearly defined for US and CAnada, "fishing trips" arent done day to day but several boats will stay out for weeks at a time. Fishing reports are available from subscription services or free from CBC Halifax. Up-front Costs for a fishing year include boat payments, supp,lies, expendables (like bait) . That is compared to expense items like depreciation and minimum crew costs and crew shares. ALl that is compared to income from fish times the value per unit.

Quote:
Quote:
Who is putting their money where their mouth is and who is having an emotional orgasm for free?
Is there a real quetion in there or are you just preening infront of your posse?

You had me going there. You started out like you were going to make sense and then you turn into the poster child for Brownian Movement.
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Wed 17 Mar, 2010 06:17 pm
@hawkeye10,
Blimey--is that a fact? ---whodathowtit?

Not the editor of the local paper I don't suppose.
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Wed 17 Mar, 2010 06:21 pm
@farmerman,
I think Brownian Movement is a nice metaphor for human activity.

Don't you?

You didn't answer the question though fm.
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Wed 17 Mar, 2010 06:43 pm
Hawkeye is just another "big lie"purveyor. The overqall project for oyster restortion has been a resounding success and has cost about 100 million since 1997. Heres a budget breqkdown
Quote:
Chesapeake Bay Oyster Recovery, MD and VA
Background: Maryland oyster populations have declined dramatically since the turn of the 20th century, largely due to parasitic diseases. Oyster restoration is critical to the economic and environmental survival of the Chesapeake Bay and is a high priority for the State of Maryland and the hesapeake Bay Program.
FACT SHEET as of January 6, 2010
Authorization: Section 704(b) of the Water Resources Development Act of 1986, as amended
Type of Project: Environmental Restoration
Chesapeake Bay Program (CBP) Contributions: Meets 5 out of 10 CBP keystone commitments: reduce nutrient and sediment inputs; restore and/or protect wetlands; restore and/or protect submerged aquatic vegetation; achieve a 10-fold increase in native oysters; and develop and/or implement watershed management lans.
p
Project Phase: Construction
Congressional Interest: Representatives Kratovil (MD-01), Sarbanes (MD-03), Hoyer (MD-05), Wittman (VA-01), Nye (VA-02), and Scott (VA-03); Senators Mikulski nd Cardin (MD), and Senators Warner and Webb (VA)
a
Non-Federal Sponsor: Maryland Department of Natural Resources
C
Project elements include: (1) disease-free spat from State-owned hatcheries; (2) creation of new oyster habitat; (3) rehabilitation of existing non-productive oyster habitat; (4) construction of seed bars for production and collection of spat; (5) planting spat on the new and rehabilitated bars; and (6) monitoring of project performance. The non-Federal sponsor for the Maryland portion is the Maryland Department f Natural Resources (MDNR).
o
U.S. ARMY CORPS OF ENGINEERS " BALTIMORE DISTRICT
P.O. Box 1715, Baltimore, MD 21203
http://www.nab.usace.army.mil
Page 1 of 2
Status: The Maryland project cooperation agreement was executed February 27, 1997, with an amendment in July 2002. To date, placement locations have been in Kedges Strait, Eastern Bay, and the Chester, Choptank, Magothy, Patuxent, and Severn Rivers. Some of these oyster bars were left for natural recruitment; others received hatchery-raised spat (773 million to date). Starting in 2001, the program was opened up to the Commonwealth of Virginia and the program goal has focused on a 10-fold increase in oyster habitat in the Chesapeake Bay. The FY 01-09 funds have been split between the Norfolk and Baltimore Districts to support activities in Virginia and Maryland, respectively. In Virginia to date, activities have been focused on oyster bar creation in Tangier Sound, Pocomoke Sound, the Great Wicomico River, and the Lynnhaven River, creating a total of 298 acres. Through summer 2009, we have constructed approximately 437 acres of new Maryland oyster bars in the Magothy, Severn, Choptank, Patuxent, and Chester Rivers, as well as Kedges Strait and Eastern Bay. Construction was just completed on approximately 13 acres of oyster bar in the Severn River, using
U.S. ARMY CORPS OF ENGINEERS " BALTIMORE DISTRICT
P.O. Box 1715, Baltimore, MD 21203
http://www.nab.usace.army.mil
Page 2 of 2
alternative substrate materials (concrete, steel slag, and stone). Spat will be placed on these bars in late spring 2010. Monitoring of these projects will continue for the next several years. In addition, funds are being used to prepare a long-term master plan for the program which is expected to cover ctivities for 2010 through 2020.
a
I
ssues: None.
Budget:
Cost Estimate by Phase ($1,000’s) Construction
Current Estimate (MD+VA) 66,6001
Federal Cost 50,000
Non-Federal Cost (In-Kind Services) 16,600
Project Cost Estimate ($1,000’s) Federal Non-Federal Total
Cons
truction 7,500 2,500 10,0001
Funds Data ($1,000’s) Total
Allocation Through FY 09 (MD+VA) 23,641 FY 10 Allocation 2,0002
FY 11 Capability TBD


I understand how Australians can try the old Buffalino dump trick, but somehow the web contains so much data that is from our own USCOE, and as for whos "watch this is on" I hope Obama doesnt kill it because its showing results. (I understand that Obama is going to kill all inland and marine fishing including sport fishing) I heard that on Glen Beck so its gotta be right, Right?
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Wed 17 Mar, 2010 06:43 pm
@spendius,
Quote:
But the "new era" doesn't come cheap.

Bay cleanup efforts have already been estimated to cost more than $15 billion, and actions to restore oyster bars and other habitats, or to protect lands from development, would likely cost billions more.

In a letter to President Obama, Virginia Gov. Tim Kaine and Maryland Gov. Martin O'Malley asked for an extra $365 million from the president's 2011 budget, which will be released in February, to start implementing the federal strategy.

Such an investment, they said, "would return enormous dividends to both the economy and the environment. Alternatively, without help, the Bay will continue to face stagnating or deteriorating ecological conditions, decreasing economic value and increasing restoration costs."

http://www.bayjournal.com/article.cfm?article=3739

all this spent and over the period the situation has gotten much worse. Current plans are to double or triple down on what we have already spent, and even before the Great recession those who were going to be asked to pay the bills (those states and communities around the bay) said that the bills would be far more than they could pay......bills for projects that might be no more effective than what we have been buying for the last 25 years.
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Wed 17 Mar, 2010 06:48 pm
@farmerman,
Quote:
The costs associated with this comprehensive effort are necessarily large.

In January 2003, the Chesapeake Bay Commission conducted the first-ever attempt to catalog the costs associated with the overall restoration in its publication, The Cost of a Clean Bay: Assessing Funding Needs Throughout the Watershed. Looking at just the states of Virginia, Maryland and Pennsylvania, the Commission calculated a restoration price tag of almost $19 billion.
Shortly thereafter, the states compiled their tributary strategies, detailing all the actions that would be necessary to restore water quality to the Bay and its tidal waters.
In October 2004, the Bay Program's Blue Ribbon Finance Panel looked across the entire 64,000-square-mile watershed and estimated the total water quality restoration cost, based on these new state estimates, to be $28 billion"more than $200 per year for every watershed resident through 2010.
Just two months later, the Bay Commission followed up the release of the Blue Ribbon Finance Panel's report with the timely Cost-Effective Strategies for the Bay: Six Smart Investments for Nutrient and Sediment Reduction. The Commission's report showed that the majority of pollution benefits could come from a more modest investment than the costs associated with every restoration activity outlined in the tributary strategies.
Significant investment in Bay restoration and preservation is already well established. Approximately three-quarters of the direct spending on Bay restoration and preservation activities comes from state governments throughout the watershed, according to a 2005 report from the U.S. Government Accountability Office.

Over a ten-year period ending in 2004, an estimated $3.7 billion in direct funding was provided to restore the Bay. Maryland , Virginia , Pennsylvania and the District of Columbia invested $2.7 billion during that period while eleven federal agencies combined for an additional $972 million . This funding was provided for water quality improvements, sound land use, vital habitat protection and restoration, living resource protection and restoration, and stewardship and community engagement.

http://www.chesapeakebay.net/fundingandfinancing.aspx?menuitem=14907
Quote:
Hawkeye is just another "big lie"purveyor. The overqall project for oyster restortion has been a resounding success and has cost about 100 million since 1997
BULLSHIT! I tell the truth, you can't handle the truth though, which is your problem not mine.
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Wed 17 Mar, 2010 07:03 pm
@hawkeye10,
Youre mixing issues Hawkeye. I am talking about demo projects for the reintroduction of oysters that began as a 25 square mile project for and "ACT LOCALLY" type of demonstration. You are arguing about cleaning up the entire 4500 square mile Chesapeake Estuary for all water quality issues.

SEE, your own post is an example of why these "global" solutions that Ionus was espousing will fail unless some small successes are shown. The USCOE projects were in effect for oyster 's(the loss of which was mostly due to sediment trnsport not combined sewere discharge or toxic non-point contamination. Nor was the oyster return around St Michaels a comparison for not TMDL's for an area roughly the size of Connecticut.

Cmon. You can do better.

I dont deny your numbers to XCLEAN UP the entire estury for all aspects of water qulity, but youre missing the point about what Im speaking of. You are bopping back and forth. IS it that you are espousing ACting "globally" or are you agreeing with me that we restore environments one dollar at a time?
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Wed 17 Mar, 2010 07:11 pm
@farmerman,
the whole point of cleaning up the bay was to protect the oysters, without the oysters very few people would have a problem with it going dead. It is totally fair to roll all of the pollution control costs into the saving the oyster cost.
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Wed 17 Mar, 2010 07:15 pm
@hawkeye10,
Quote:
you can't handle the truth though,
HAve you read the US Corps of Engineers thingy I posted about the oyster project? See how its local and how its focused?
The entire XChesapeake cleanup has been tossed around for years because technology hasnt caught up with the problem. (One of the really big problems is the draiange of the 30000 miles of PA streams in the ASUsquehanna basin that feeds into the Chesapeake. These are streams that are acidified due to coal mining in PA. QWe still dont know how to handle that pollution load in means other than adjusting the pH with ground limestone.
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Wed 17 Mar, 2010 07:27 pm
@farmerman,
Quote:
QWe still dont know how to handle that pollution load in means other than adjusting the pH with ground limestone.


and the solutions for the farm run-off problem are more expensive than the states can handle so if it were to be done all of America would need to pay for it. All to save the oyster, which is now down to 1% of what it once was population wise.

It is a lost cause, throwing money at it will not change this. Planting oysters as we are now is stupidity in action, we already know that the bay can not sustain them long term, they will get killed off, only the when is in doubt.
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Wed 17 Mar, 2010 08:00 pm
@hawkeye10,
Yu are still conflatting issues for "News appeal" the big issue with the oyster reintroduction is not limiting by water quality. Its an aintroduction of one pathogen from Asia. Prelim work has been done for the reintroduction of Gigatis oysters in 2003. The primay problem with native oysters is MSX which the imprted oysters arent affected by. (Gigatis is immune to MSAX and its a select oyster0. The oyter itaself is a filter agent that hepled clean th e bay waters by filter feeding.
The number of 15 Billion is being kicked around like it the number that , like in some presidential debate, I have to discount. Ive told you and shown the costs for the USCOE which included some of the nonnative oyster introduction (testing using sterile spat).

If we add up all the numbers and approach 19 Billion for the 5000 square mile bay and 30000mile Susquehanna and (whatever the additional length for the Potomac Ja,mes, Severn, Choptank, Nanticoke, Bohemia and Sassafras are).Thats waay more than just oyster reintroduction, and you know it.

The oysters have drstically declined soince the beginning of the 20th century and have additionally been overfished until the MSX problem occured and knocked the bottom out even further.

I dont think that someone is going to state " its over were beaten" With that attitude why did the biprtisan (GOP led Congress working with then pres Nixon) push to establish the entire Clean Water Act in 1973?
0 Replies
 
Ionus
 
  1  
Reply Wed 17 Mar, 2010 10:02 pm
Fish stocks declining worldwide is a clear example of how thinking globally acting locally has failed miserably. How did this happen if it is so successful ? What is the local solution that will fix it ? We have wasted time and now it has caught up. How do we solve world wide problems now...continue to THINK globally, or should we act ?
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Wed 17 Mar, 2010 10:14 pm
@Ionus,
Quote:
Fish stocks declining worldwide is a clear example of how thinking globally acting locally has failed miserably.


That's your opinion, which you keep repeating, Ionus.
As I've already said, I have no problem at all with your desire for global action, in fact I see both as desirable. I suspect most of us would.

I don't think you've answered my question yet about what practical, do-able global action can realistically be applied to the problem of overfishing, apart from education campaigns (which I see as desirable, too.)
It would help if you would expand on what you've already said.
Ionus
 
  1  
Reply Wed 17 Mar, 2010 10:55 pm
@msolga,
Quote:
I don't think you've answered my question yet
I thought I had...
http://able2know.org/topic/142272-16#post-3935736

Quote:
what practical, do-able global action can realistically be applied to the problem of overfishing
My first post on this thread was to say that the public need a shock...running out of a type of fish or cute animal might be the one required. Just keeping these things alive is counter productive in the long term.

We have agreed on education to be more globally responsible.

As spendy suggested we could also just let market forces sort it out. I am suspicious of this because although it will certainly work it will affect poor countries the worst. What if we banned fish like the anti-fur protestors did with fur ? What if the rich west gave up on fish and ate land animals instead ? This would allow more fish for the poor countries.

But some places have no problem with fish. Australia has more fish than it requires because of a large coastline and small population and it will never be affected by a shortage of sushi. Australia allows Japan to hunt whales in the Antartic to sweeten trade deals. It sells Japan its tuna.

To allow fish stocks to replenish, there is only one practical, realistic, do-able global action - The countries that are a problem must be faced with strong enough political will by others. Countries like Japan must be brought out into the light of day. They are a very insulated society, and a lot of what we talk about in the west is not mentioned in Japan (just as an example country). Political will can only be generated through education not ramming ships.
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Wed 17 Mar, 2010 11:01 pm
@spendius,
Quote:
Why do you keep coming back to it then. An apology is all that is required and not a grudging one either.


I "keep coming back to it", Spendius, because you keep going on & on about it.

In an earlier post you said: "his last 40 posts there are 13 threads he has contributed to that I have not and 2 threads I have."

But I was talking about months & months, Spendius. Not the last 40 posts!

OK, I happily retract my statement that you have been stalking farmerman. It is simply a coincidence that you kept turning up on a number of threads he had posted to ... & then posted some pretty unpleasant, insulting comments, which often had minimal relevance to the thread topic. And yes, I found this pretty offensive. That's why I talked to you about it on another thread, to encourage you to stop it. If you can't recall this conversation, I can.

As for the "threats of violence" you keep referring to, I have no desire what-so-ever desire to be involved. I personally have made no threats of violence toward you or anyone else here, ever ... & it is not my responsibility to sort this out. I am not your keeper. You could complain the the moderators, you could complain to the thread instigator, you could complain to the person who made the threats. You could even complain to your local police if you think someone is about to knock on your door & bash you up. Why you seem to think this is something I (& no one else?) should become involved in, I honestly have no idea. My suggestion is that if it's such an important matter to you then you should do something about it yourself.

Now sadly, I'm afraid, I am putting you on "ignore" for a bit. I haven't done this yet on this forum, but I've really had enough of you going on & on about the same thing. I wish you would address the subject of overfishing a bit more often.


Ionus
 
  0  
Reply Wed 17 Mar, 2010 11:05 pm
@msolga,
Quote:
You could complain the the moderators
I have done that out of indignation that someone would threaten anyone here. Guess what ? It is now a free for all...they did nothing.
Rockhead
 
  0  
Reply Wed 17 Mar, 2010 11:07 pm
@Ionus,
nothing you can see...

hamsters work in strange and mysterious ways, small armed squirrel.
msolga
 
  0  
Reply Wed 17 Mar, 2010 11:08 pm
@JTT,
Quote:
Come on, MsOlga, be honest. You simply disguise the same behavior behind a frilly chiffon dress.


"Frilly chiffon dress", JTT?

You disappoint me. But you can believe what you want, of course.

I thought you were the one who was desperately keen to discuss the overfishing issue. Why don't you do a bit more of that now you have the opportunity to?
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Wed 17 Mar, 2010 11:11 pm
@msolga,
And now, I'd prefer to stick to the thread topic from this point on ....
0 Replies
 
 

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