DECLINES IN FISH STOCKS WORLDWIDE_the ecology of exinction

@Ionus,

Quote:

So....who wants the climate screwed, dirty air and dead oceans (no whales, no tuna, no marlin, no cod, nothing....nada...zilch...zero)

Well not me, or anyone else here, I'm pretty confident! Smile

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@msolga,

I am concerned that the curent approach is not transferable to large problems. It will simply mean we fail to act in time, if at all.

1 Reply

@Ionus,

Quote:

By doing things locally we rob motivation from doing things globally

Look, I'm not arguing about attempting to act globally at all. Just tell us exactly, in practical terms, how to go about it.

Also I disagree that acting locally is some sort of disincentive to "act globally". In fact, if particular a local action is seen to have been effective, it might have quite the opposite effect ... it may well inspire others to follow suit.

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@Ionus,

Sorry, I really don't know what you mean by "the current approach is not transferable to large problems."

What current approach?

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@msolga,

Quote:

tell us exactly, in practical terms, how to go about it.

We have to educate people that the problem is global. People plant trees and think they have done a good thing because it is local. We need them to think about the whole world and not just some species. This hopefully will create the ground roots political pressure for change. All the big problems are global. Do we need a world government to deal with the world economy, problems like conservation and the world population ? I cant see change without it, but I cant see how to bring it about unless the majority want it.

So, step one, change the message....Act globally, think green....

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@msolga,

By definition a global problem will be large and take a concerted effort. The current approach is to act locally and it will not work with any global problem. Some people will be doing things one way, others a different way, some wont agree...just like herding cats they will go in all directions.

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@Ionus,

Quote:

We have to educate people that the problem is global.

You don't think that is already happening? Wink

That's hardly a new notion.

That's why the "green movement" is attracting more & more people & becoming a political & social force in this & many other countries.

No, I meant, say in regard to overfishing the oceans ... what practical, do-able global approach would you suggest to tackle the problem?

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@Ionus,

Sorry, Ionus, I'm just finding comments like this rather vague on details & action. I think I'll leave it here for tonight.

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@msolga,

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As for any further discussion about you following farmer around from thread to thread, I've really said all I want to say on that subject.

There was never anything to say on the subject. I proved I wasn't following farmerman around. Check his "My posts". It's easy enough. Check mine and you'll see he doesn't follow me around either. We are both interested in a couple of subjects. It is normal for us to be arguing about those.

You need to apologise for accusing me of stalking him and using a word like "offensive" to try to peg me as a pervertt. It was out of order as was the threat of violence which you were silent about which proves a claque exists. When you make unwarranted and unfounded attacks on me and let a threat of violence pass without comment it is obvious a claque exists.

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@msolga,

Quote:

You're saying that tuna is over-fished for nothing but economic reasons?
If so, you don't have any argument with me on that.

Well then--that's all there is to it. An economic discussion about fishing the oceans and rivers.

[/quote]Of course if world population growth was limited (how exactly?) there would be fewer mouths to feed & less need for exploitation of the planet's resources. If I've understood what you're saying. [/quote]

China has a strict family limitation policy. The Soviet Union had a strong family growth policy in the 50s with medals for women who had 5 kids and state support. I read that France has a programme to raise the population by 20 million but I don't know if that is the case. India had a massive birth control programme a few years ago which Germaine Greer was particularly scathing about.

Europe in the 15th, 16th and 17th centuries had a ruthless population growth programme.

How exactly eh- segregate the sexes and have applications for breeding. How's that--a global solution directed by the UN.

On overfishing don't forget Setanta's American Navy solution.

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@spendius,

Spendius, my very last word on this subject: I asked you on another thread, some weeks ago why you actually did it. Obviously I had some perception on this. But if you believe otherwise, of course you can. I am perfectly comfortable with you believing whatever it is you believe. I've also noticed he doesn't follow you around! Wink

Now I have absolutely no desire or interest to discuss this further.

BTW I actually didn't even notice that someone "threatened violence" toward you. And if someone actually did, why is it something I, in particular must address? Confused

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@msolga,

Quote:

Also I disagree that acting locally is some sort of disincentive to "act globally". In fact, if particular a local action is seen to have been effective, it might have quite the opposite effect ... it may well inspire others to follow suit.

. EXACTLY!!. The Us examples have been totally an example of acting locally and then, throuh example, having programs adopted for regional approaches.

The entire oyster decline in the lower Chesapeake Bay sparked an effort to restore oyster banks with a multifaceted approach in an area of less than 25 sq miles. The restoration projects gathered steam by
1restoration of grqasses
2raising oyster "spat" in clean waters to overcome the initial shock of waters that were silted in by ag sediment
3 working on agriculture sediment controls through CBI initiatives and Susquehanna Xompact studies.

The success of this program had been written up and applied elsewhere and then the same "ideas" were applied to restoration of rockfish, blue crabs and striped bass in small areas of the BAY

The new results of the combined program spurred further interest into developing more regional approaches to the entire bay. The main components are restoration of species and cleaning up the water. It all started from smaller local actions . If it were somehow planned to do this in a much larger fashion ,"An all or nothing approach" as some seem to espouse, the US EPA and state ENvironmental and Fishery Agencies could hardly be expected to even agree on where to hold a meeting.

Small successes breed the desire for larger successes. Thats the way its been and probably will be for the forseeable future.

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@farmerman,

Also, to believe that we can act in a fashion that can restore vanishing zooplankton , argues agaiunst what we DO know about climate science. ITS A FACT, the climate is changing . I submit that these are natural cycles that reflect albido and sun spots and axial wobbles rather than CO2. However, the thermoclines measured in the Pacific today have shown a several degree difference of temperature gradient between surface and the fisrt clines. Reerch at Stanford and the Chesapekae Bay Institute has shown that these thermoclines have blocked the ability of several nutrients from reaching the surface waters and thus the temperature changes have the effect of "starving out" the zooplankton and they are in rapid decline.
AS a student of evolution I say that, sooner or later, the zooplankton who are able to feed off the surface phytoplankton in a more efficient manner will gradually take over and fill the shallow water niche and provide food for fish fry who primarily live on zooplankton. This is a mostly natural cyclic thing that vastly reduces the number of adult market fish because these fry will probably engage in cannibalizing their siblings to survive in a world of low zooplankton and krill .

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@msolga,

Quote:

That's why the "green movement" is attracting more & more people & becoming a political & social force in this & many other countries.

It appeals to big time consumers that by being in-the-face "green" they are being concerned and compassionate.

Mr David Bellamy toured the UK giving green speeches and drove from gig to gig in a six-cylinder Maserati. It's an affectation of the better off and some think an attempt to keep the poor down.

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@msolga,

Quote:

Spendius, my very last word on this subject: I asked you on another thread, some weeks ago why you actually did it. Obviously I had some perception on this. But if you believe otherwise, of course you can. I am perfectly comfortable with you believing whatever it is you believe. I've also noticed he doesn't follow you around!

Now I have absolutely no desire or interest to discuss this further.

Why do you keep coming back to it then. An apology is all that is required and not a grudging one either. There was NO substance to your offensive remarks and no excuse for not registering your disapproval of a threat of violence. Had that been said in my pub's landlord's hearing the chap would have been shown the door and told not to come back.

He should apologise to me and to A2K which is now faced with being a party to the threat as it is on its premises.

Your pride is showing and that isn't No 1 in the list of Seven Deadly Sins for no reason.

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@msolga,

Quote:

BTW I actually didn't even notice that someone "threatened violence" toward you. And if someone actually did, why is it something I, in particular must address?

In which case you are not reading the thread. You should have addressed it not only to distance yourself and your position from it but to show it had a higher priority than false accusations about me stalking farmerman.

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@msolga,

Quote:

As for any further discussion about you following farmer around from thread to thread, I've really said all I want to say on that subject.

You should apologize to Spendius and admit that you got sucked into another one of these ever increasing childish taunts.

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@msolga,

Quote:

If you want to discuss any particular thread issues specifically with me, I'd prefer it without such colourful comments.

Come on, MsOlga, be honest. You simply disguise the same behavior behind a frilly chiffon dress.

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@farmerman,

Quote:

The entire oyster decline in the lower Chesapeake Bay sparked an effort to restore oyster banks with a multifaceted approach in an area of less than 25 sq miles.

But what's 25 square miles. The area of ocean is not far off 200 million square miles. That looks like a local investment to keep a local industry going. It's an eighth millionth of the surface of ocean and probably shallower than most of it. And near at hand. Possibly politically sensitive like the pH in a pork barrel is to the type of lumber the cooper used.

It's not unlike imagining macro economics in terms of the weekly household budget in a flat in bed-sit land.

Tell me fm--you said the boats cost millions as did also the rigs--given that money already spent what is the cost of mounting an expedition to catch fish. The cost of boat and rigs is yesterday's cold potatoes isn't it? Would going out tomorrow imply a confidence that fish stocks in the ocean were not as much in decline as some people, for whatever reason, were claiming them to be.

Who is putting their money where their mouth is and who is having an emotional orgasm for free?

Answer me that Big Fellah?

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@JTT,

You didn't ought to mention frilly chiffon dresses JT. The thought of them unhinges my intellect and inhibits me from giving this important subject the scientific attention it deserves.

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DECLINES IN FISH STOCKS WORLDWIDE_the ecology of exinction

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