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DECLINES IN FISH STOCKS WORLDWIDE_the ecology of exinction

 
 
Ionus
 
  -1  
Reply Wed 17 Mar, 2010 11:23 pm
@Rockhead,
As I trust you implicitly, Rocky, I shall say no more.
0 Replies
 
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Wed 17 Mar, 2010 11:53 pm
@Ionus,
I agree with how you'd approach the Australian conservation problems we are faced with, Ionus. Obviously the piecemeal, state by state approach isn't working at all at this critical time.

However, in terms of organization & the implementation of a global response to overfishing of the oceans ... that is a much, much more challenging goal. If some world body could actually get all the nations of the world working cooperatively together for the common good of the planet, that would be an amazing achievement, indeed! But, as you'd be aware, I think, individual countries with their own individual agendas (which vary widely) is the reality we're stuck with at present. (I look at the not-too-uplifting example of the Copenhagen talks as an example of nations' differences over-riding the common good of the planet. Pretty depressing outcome.) And if we are not even able to even get all the Australian states to agree on unified action for the common good at this critical time (because of separate interests), what hope realistically can we expect from a combined nation approach?

As I've said a number of times already, I am not opposing your ideal of global action, I simply see it as very difficult thing to achieve at this point in time. In any case, you can support the ideal of global and local action at the same time. Why not? And sometimes (as has been recently discussed here) successful local action can have a very positive influence on the "big picture". I don't see that we actually have a major disagreement here. You are talking about desired ideals, I am talking about what I see as practically do-able at this point in time.
Ionus
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Mar, 2010 12:24 am
@msolga,
I dont think we have any disagreement, except possibly what I am about to emphasise...the political power is lacking to coerce, cajol and co-operate with nations to achieve sensible management of fish stocks. We have failed to achieve this by now, because we started with an act locally policy. How do we quickly change emphasis ? A major disaster to a cute species should do it. Is there any other way ? I cant see any.
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Mar, 2010 12:51 am
@Ionus,
Quote:
We have failed to achieve this by now, because we started with an act locally policy.


Not at all. I totally disagree.

The impetus for change has to start somewhere. Where else but in everyone's "backyard"?

Quote:
A major disaster to a cute species should do it. Is there any other way ? I cant see any.


First of all the "cute species" argument is pretty irrelevant to me & most likely to most people with any sort of commitment to conservation issues. (Do you think the Tasmanian Devil, for example, is cute? Yet we are supporting the desperate efforts to save it from extinction despite it being incredibly ugly & ornery to boot! Smile )

No, though I agree with you that some major disaster may indeed be the necessary "wake up call". It will, sadly, need to be disaster of such serious magnitude, to directly affect the lives of many ordinary people (probably in affluent countries, because the reality is that affluent countries, rightly or wrongly, have the most influence at this point in time). What that disaster might actually be, I don't even want to speculate about. I don't know, I can only guess. But one in which ordinary people will all be shocked enough out of our complacency into taking these issues a lot more seriously.
Ionus
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Mar, 2010 01:01 am
@msolga,
Quote:
It will, sadly, need to be disaster of such serious magnitude, to directly affect the lives of many ordinary people (probably in affluent countries, because the reality is that affluent countries, rightly or wrongly, have the most influence at this point in time). What that disaster might actually be, I don't even want to speculate about. I don't know, I can only guess. But one in which ordinary people will all be shocked enough out of our complacency into taking these issues a lot more seriously.
Agreed.

Quote:
First of all the "cute species" argument is pretty irrelevant to me & most likely to most people with any sort of commitment to conservation issues. (Do you think the Tasmanian Devil, for example, is cute? Yet we are supporting the desperate efforts to save it from extinction despite it being incredibly ugly & ornery to boot! )
Name the animals you want to save..top ten...

Actually the tasmanian devil is rather placid. You can pick up a wild one by the scruff of the neck and if that was a feral cat you would lose a lot of blood. They make a lot of noise but they are reluctant to attack even after being handled the tenth time. They are VERY aggressive to anything their size including other devils. There is some debate about what is causing there herpes...some say man, others say it was in the population naturally but it just mtated as virus may do..
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Mar, 2010 01:06 am
@Ionus,
Quote:
Name the animals you want to save..top ten...


Ha. I don't "do" conservation lists, Ionis.

Seriously, I don't.

Let's hope those poor, hideously suffering Tasmanian Devils get their reprieve from extinction!

And now I am off to cook dinner. (It is that time in the south/eastern part of the Oz continent.)
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  -1  
Reply Thu 18 Mar, 2010 06:31 am
There is no overfishing.

Every supermarket in the world, give or take a few minor exceptions, sells tins of salmon, tuna, sardine, sild, mackeral, pilchard, kippers, anchovies etc.

Each comes in different sized tins with tomato sauce, sunflower oil and brine. There are chunks, slices, fillets and steaks. Some with exotic spices.

Fishmongers sell a vast range of fish on the slab and restaurants and chip shops have never been known to have no fish.

All these products are sold at prices which most people can afford. Tesco have a sardine at 49 pence.

There are also fish pastes. And fish meal fed to animals.

The shelves are piled up with these products and there are no signs that they won't continue to be. If there was a threat to supplies business men would fill warehouses with them as an investment.

The whole idea of overfishing is psychological. It is a flouncing mechanism for concerned ladies to thrum with indignation about and got up by media as a form of harmless entertainment. We might have made life too easy for females and they now have too much time on their hands.

People like farmerman milk the fad in order to sound masterful and in the business of riding to the rescue of damsels in distress.

All it acheives is the addition of extra layers of bureaucratic control from which, I presume, farmerman hopes to benefit in some way if just sounding masterful is nothing but a bonus.

The whole process is self correcting on the price and profit mechanisms. That's why farmerman refused the question of investment in a fishing expedition.

The concept of overfishing can have no meaning for an evolutionist but, as we all know, farmerman and his ilk are only evolutionists when it suits them such as when they want bash Christianity because it tries to discipline sexual activity.

Obviously, they never confront the idea of there being no discipline on sexual activity. That's on Ignore.

Ignore is intellectual death. Give it power and it ends up hiding behind walls issuing edicts. Glasnost beat the **** out of the Kremlin.


0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  -2  
Reply Thu 18 Mar, 2010 11:57 am
@msolga,
Quote:
I thought you were the one who was desperately keen to discuss the overfishing issue.


You got that mistaken notion because virtually everyone was discussing the issue on your whale thread but me. You just bought into the BS that was causally tossed around about how it was me.

That disappointment door swings both ways. Yes, MsOlga, you do the same thing but you disguise it. You don't point out any of the behavior that you find so distressing in the folks that just happen to support your position.
Rockhead
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Mar, 2010 12:03 pm
@JTT,
whales.

where are the f*cking whales...?

Rolling Eyes
JTT
 
  0  
Reply Thu 18 Mar, 2010 02:02 pm
@Rockhead,
Who thumbed you down for that comment, Rocky? I thumbed you right back up.
0 Replies
 
dlowan
 
  2  
Reply Thu 18 Mar, 2010 03:18 pm
Quote:
Export ban on Atlantic bluefin tuna rejected

The Associated Press

DOHA, Qatar " Fishing nations won a victory over environmentalists Thursday when a U.S.-backed proposal to ban export of the Atlantic bluefin tuna was overwhelmingly rejected at a U.N. wildlife meeting.

Japan won over scores of poorer nations with a campaign that played on fears that a ban would devastate their economies. Tokyo also raised doubts that such a radical move was scientifically sound.

In another blow to conservationists, a proposal at the meeting to ban the international sale of polar bear skins failed to pass.

With stocks of Atlantic bluefin tuna down 75 percent due to the rapacious appetites of Japanese sushi lovers, the defeat of the proposal was a stunning setback for the Americans, Europeans and their conservationist allies who had hoped the 175-nation Convention on International Trade in Endangered Species, or CITES, would protect the fish.

"Let's take science and throw it out the door," Susan Lieberman, director of international policy with the Pew Environment Group in Washington, said sarcastically.....................



Full story here:

http://www.ajc.com/news/nation-world/export-ban-on-atlantic-381346.html


JTT
 
  -1  
Reply Thu 18 Mar, 2010 03:53 pm
@dlowan,
Quote:
With stocks of Atlantic bluefin tuna down 75 percent due to the rapacious appetites of Japanese sushi lovers,


I wonder how many sushi shops have been shut down in the USA and Australia.

You know, lead by example.

"rapacious" is not an accurate word to describe those who eat sushi, at least those in Japan.

You want to know rapacious;

Quote:

Top 5 facts on US Military Oil Consumption

4) The Department of Defense (DoD) per capita energy consumption of 524 trillion Btu is 10 times more than per capita energy consumption in China, or 30 times more than that of Africa. Only three countries consume more oil per capita then the DoD.

3) In 2006 Air Force consumed around 2.6 billion gallons of jet-fuel which is the same amount of fuel U.S. airplanes consumed during WWII (between December 1941 and August 1945). The mighty B52 bomber (pictured above) consumes 3300 gallons per hour, the F16 Falcon burns 800 gallons per hour and the KC-135 Statotanker an aerial refueling tanker aircraft consumes 2650 gallons per hour.

2) The Department of Defense is the single largest consumer of petroleum in the U.S and the US military is the biggest purchaser of oil in the world. In 2006 the US Military consumed 117 million barrels or 320,000 barrels per day.

1) With upto 15 gallons per day per deployed soldier in January 2007 the American GI is the most energy-consuming soldier ever seen on the field of war.

http://www.newlaunches.com/archives/top_5_facts_on_us_military_oil_consumption.php



Quote:

US military energy consumption- facts and figures
by Sohbet Karbuz

As the saying goes, facts are many but the truth is one. The truth is that the U.S. military is the single largest consumer of energy in the world. But as a wise man once said, don't confuse facts with reality. The reality is that even U.S. Department of Defense (DoD) does not know precisely where and how much energy it consumes. This is my Fact Zero.

Below I give some facts and figures on U.S. military oil consumption based mostly on official statistics.[1] If you want to reproduce them make sure you read every footnote even if you need to put on your glasses. Also read the footnotes in this article.

FACT 1: The DoD's total primary energy consumption in Fiscal Year 2006 was 1100 trillion Btu. It corresponds to only 1% of total energy consumption in USA. For those of you who think that this is not much then read the next sentence.

Nigeria, with a population of more than 140 million, consumes as much energy as the U.S. military.

The DoD per capita[2] energy consumption (524 trillion Btu) is 10 times more than per capita energy consumption in China, or 30 times more than that of Africa.

Total final energy consumption (called site delivered energy by DoD) of the DoD was 844 trillion Btu in FY2006.

...

FACT 8: According to 2007 CIA World Fact Book there are only 35 countries in the world consuming more oil than DoD. Guess how many countries consume more oil per capita than the DoD? Only three.[13]


http://www.energybulletin.net/node/29925



That's not 35 countries consuming more oil than the whole USA; that's just the DoD.



0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Mar, 2010 04:10 pm
@dlowan,
The record price for a Bluefin was almost 200000$.
spendius
 
  0  
Reply Thu 18 Mar, 2010 05:58 pm
@farmerman,
Eating at those prices is obviously very sophisticated. The taste must be irrelevant.

I advise viewers here that top-of-the-range sticky toffee pudding with runny custard is far superior and leaves about $199, 998.01 for investing in the shares of a reputable international bank returning 4%.
Ionus
 
  -1  
Reply Thu 18 Mar, 2010 06:05 pm
@spendius,
Very Happy Very Happy Very apt comment, spendy !
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  -1  
Reply Thu 18 Mar, 2010 08:46 pm
@spendius,
Quote:
the shares of a reputable international bank


Where might you find one of those, Spendi? They are really endangered species.
0 Replies
 
Ionus
 
  1  
Reply Fri 19 Mar, 2010 12:37 am
http://www.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,1846014,00.html
That is not even the tip of the iceberg.
0 Replies
 
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Fri 19 Mar, 2010 12:56 am
@dlowan,
Yes, I heard this news on the ABC, the way to work this morning. Most unfortunate. A victory for short-term economic interests, as I see it.
But I can also see that poor countries, those which rely heavily on fishing for their livelihood, probably cannot support such bans unless realistic compensatory measures are made available from wealthy countries. Similar issues to Copenhagen. Of course, these poor nations are in an entirely different position to the likes of Japan, which lead the opposition to the resolution.
All the same, it's a most unfortunate outcome for conservationists.
This link is from a lengthy article from The Guardian (UK).:


Quote:
Countries at the meeting of the Convention on International Trade in Endangered Species (Cites) in Qatar voted down a proposal from Monaco to grant the fish stronger protection. The plan drew little support, with developing countries joining Japan in opposing a measure they feared would hit fishing economies.

It is understood that the UK, the Netherlands and possibly other European nations voted in favour of the Monaco proposal, against the EU's official position.

Campaigners complained that debate on the fate of the Atlantic bluefin fishery was cut short and an immediate vote pushed through by Libya. Seventy-two out of 129 Cites members voted against the trade ban and 43 voted in favour, with 14 abstentions.

Dr Sergi Tudela, head of fisheries at WWF Mediterranean, said: "After overwhelming scientific justification and growing political support in past months, with backing from the majority of catch quota holders on both sides of the Atlantic, it is scandalous that governments did not even get the chance to engage in meaningful debate about the international trade ban proposal for Atlantic bluefin tuna."

The UK environment secretary, Hilary Benn, said: "As we have long argued, bluefin tuna must be afforded protection if we are to avoid losing it forever. Today the UK has shown its commitment to bluefin tuna. We are disappointed that proposals to list bluefin tuna on appendix I of Cites were defeated."

Monaco introduced the proposal because it said only extreme measures can save stocks of the iconic migratory fish, which have fallen by 75% due to widespread overfishing. Only the United States, Norway and Kenya supported the proposal outright. The European Union asked that implementation be delayed until May 2011 to give authorities time to respond to concerns about overfishing. It's official position was to abstain in the vote on the Monaco proposal.

Japan, which imports 80% of Atlantic bluefin and had led the opposition to the ban, restated its position that Cites should not regulate tuna and other marine species. It said it would accept lower quotas for bluefin tuna, but said they should come from the International Commission for the Conservation of Atlantic Tunas (ICCAT), which currently regulates the trade.


http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2010/mar/18/bluefin-tuna-un-cites
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Fri 19 Mar, 2010 01:09 am
@msolga,
A proposed ban on polar bear trade was also defeated at the meeting.:

Quote:
A US-backed proposal to ban the international trade of polar bear skins, teeth and claws was defeated today at a UN wildlife meeting over concerns it would hurt indigenous economies and arguments the practice didn't pose a significant threat to the animals.


US proposal to ban polar bear trade voted down at UN wildlife meeting:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2010/mar/18/us-polar-bear-un
Ionus
 
  1  
Reply Fri 19 Mar, 2010 02:00 am
@msolga,
I am certain these people are thinking globally and acting locally so where is the problem ?
 

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