How did the World Trade Center collapse?

@HexHammer,

No, I am pointing out that an uninformed argument that they didn't test is nothing more than an uninformed argument.

If you can't tell us what they should have tested for how can you make a logical argument that they didn't test?

It is the SAME as arguing they didn't test for alien life forms. It is silly and unsubstantiated.

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@parados,

parados wrote:

No, I am pointing out that an uninformed argument that they didn't test is nothing more than an uninformed argument.

If you can't tell us what they should have tested for how can you make a logical argument that they didn't test?

It is the SAME as arguing they didn't test for alien life forms. It is silly and unsubstantiated.

It's prone to release information about findings in the derbish of 9/11, it's not prone to release farfetched information. I'm puzzled about your seemingly skitzo basis of comparison.

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@HexHammer,

So you've read the entire FEMA report?

http://www.fema.gov/rebuild/mat/wtcstudy.shtm

And all the NIST reports?

http://wtc.nist.gov/NCSTAR1/

They released a LOT of information.

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@parados,

Do you have an engineering degree? The FEMA Reports might be convincing to a non-technical person but not anyone else.

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@talk72000,

What specifically do you find fault with talk?

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@parados,

It is a case of cherry picking. There should be a floor by floor, section by section, building by building thorough examination. Unconvincing.

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@talk72000,

Quote:

It is a case of cherry picking. There should be a floor by floor, section by section, building by building thorough examination. Unconvincing.

And if they did that would you argue it was unconvincing because they didn't do it bolt by bolt?

Your argument is ridiculous talk since the failure for each floor would be very similar once the building starts to come down. Examining each floor isn't needed since the failure is the same once the collapse has started.

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@parados,

So, in your "professional" opinion talk, why would the collapse of floor 21 be different from the collapse of floor 20? Be specific and provide some numbers.

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@parados,

I have not examined the debris so don't put words in my mouth. I am critiquing the Reports and I agree with the MIT Engineering Professor that the report is poorly done.

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@talk72000,

Why should I put words in your mouth. I am merely asking you to tell us what could have been found.

Tell us what an examination would have found different from floor 20 and 21.

Of course you do realize that the debris doesn't tell you nearly as much as computer modeling does, don't you?

Quote:

I agree with the MIT Engineering Professor that the report is poorly done.

Ok. but it would be nutty to agree with the SETI scientist that says they didn't look for signs of alien involvement? One can find nuts with degrees to say just about anything talk. It doesn't make their argument valid just because they have a degree. Appealing to authority without some reason why they would be right is nothing but an uninformed opinion.

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@talk72000,

If the report is poorly done talk, can you provide us an example of a report that is well done or even not poorly done?

I think you will find this report is far more detailed than most reports. But I am willing to compare it to a report you think is done properly.

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@parados,

The Report is not thorough and there is no indication of the floor debris. If they are the same it should be identified. If you have two daughters, do you go home gretting each daughter as if they are the same? To outsiders who are disinterested one of your daughter is like the other. For yourself you know each e.g. Sarah from Elsa. Your views are of a disinterested outsider.

Quote:

I am willing to compare it to a report you think is done properly

You would accept anything. Many have tried to get into engineering and of 300 only 10 or get in. Of those 100 in engineering only 10 graduate with a degree.

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@talk72000,

We aren't talking about daughters. We are talking about structural steel and concrete on floors that are built the same and have the same stresses causing failure.

How many times do you require the same calculations be done before you will accept them?

But, do you have a properly done report or not? I am just curious what you think is the correct way of doing it.

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@parados,

The idea is differentiation.
It has nothing to do with 'calculations' that were made up.

Obviously you are out of your depths. You couldn't make it as an engineer.

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@talk72000,

Oh.. nothing like posting a video with OBVIOUS lies to support you claims.
Rolling Eyes

Destroyed illegally? OK.. let's examine that claim. Cite the law that made it illegal. Cite anything that made it illegal.

Had to be retrieved from landfills? No, that is a misrepresentation of the truth.
The debris was trucked to a closed land fill for forensic examination.

Black smoke means fire that isn't getting enough oxygen? That's a good one. Ever seen a tire burn with LOTS of oxygen? Smoke color depends on fuel and not just oxygen available.

http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:s5JjNNXQS0tPPM:http://www.earth-link.com.hk/tire_fire07.jpg&t=1

Plastic has a tendency to create black smoke. Ever been in an office and seen how much plastic is in one? Computers and other office electronics, chairs, desks are all made out of plastic.

And the speech is from 2004, prior to the NIST final report in 2005. So much of his complaint of lack of modeling is moot after the NIST report.

Quote:

Obviously you are out of your depths. You couldn't make it as an engineer.

And obviously you can't make any argument yourself but can only parrot nut cases.

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@parados,

You have no training in engineering and commenting on an engineering disaster. The enormity of the crime deserves thorough investigation not a rush to judgement effort. Is that too hard for you?

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@talk72000,

What rush to judgement?

Are you saying the NIST report that took 4 years was a rush to judgment?
What is faulty about it? What was rushed?

The only thing I am seeing talk is you don't like the conclusions so are attempting to claim it isn't done correctly. Yet, you haven't given me an example of what was wrong with it specifically or what a proper report would look like.

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@talk72000,

Quote:

You have no training in engineering and commenting on an engineering disaster.

And you are an engineer? If so, what kind?

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@parados,

I have an engineering degree. There are many engineers on this forum as well as scientists. I curious why they have not participated.

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@talk72000,

There are a lot of curious people asking a lot of really good questions, like these three expert pilots for example.

Quote:

John Lear – Retired commercial airline pilot with over 19,000+ total hours flown in over 100 different types of planes for 10 different airlines in 60 different countries around the world. Flew for over 40 years. Holds every certificate ever offered by the FAA and has 23 different FAA type ratings. Held 17 world records including speed around the world in a Lear Jet Model 24, set in 1966. He was presented with the PATCO award for outstanding airmanship in 1968, and the Symons Wave memorial. Flight experience includes Boeing 707 and 727, McDonnell Douglas DC-8, Lockheed L-1011 and many others. Son of Bill Lear, founder of Lear Jet Corp.

Audio interview with Rob Balsamo 3/9/07: Regarding the Flight Data Recorder information for Flight 77, which allegedly hit the Pentagon, released by the NTSB

John Lear: There's a lot things in that tape that came up, that if you're a pilot, you say, "Hey, wait a minute. That's bull****. That could never happen in a million years." ...

Rob Balsamo: What did you think about 9/11 after you saw it?

John Lear: Well, you know, five minutes after it happened, I knew that it was a scam. ... No Boeing 757 ever crashed into the Pentagon. No Boeing 757 ever crashed at Shanksville. ... And no Arab hijacker, ever in a million years, ever flew into the World Trade Center. And if you got 30 minutes I'll tell you exactly why he couldn't do it the first time. Now, I'd have trouble doing it the first time.

Rob Balsamo: Yeah, same here.

John Lear: Maybe if I had a couple tries to line up a few building, I could have done it. But certainly not the first time and certainly not at 500 or 600 miles an hour.

Rob Balsamo: Yeah, as a matter of fact, one of our members, he was a 737 Check Airman. He was in the sim at the time on September 11 and right after it happened they tried to duplicate it in the simulator and they said they couldn't do it. They were trying to hit the Towers and they couldn't do it. ...

John Lear: Yeah, it would be an amazing feat of airmanship. ...

John Lear: People ask, you know, why do I think that 9/11 was a scam. They say, "Why would the government do that?" And I said, there's three basic reasons. Number 1; they wanted to take away all our liberties and they had to pose a threat to do that. Number 2; they wanted a reason to go into Afghanistan. ... Then the third thing was we had to have a pretext for going into Iraq.

http://video.google.com

Member: Pilots for 9/11 Truth Association Statement: "Pilots for 9/11 Truth is an organization of aviation professionals and pilots throughout the globe that have gathered together for one purpose. We are committed to seeking the truth surrounding the events of the 11th of September 2001. Our main focus concentrates on the four flights, maneuvers performed and the reported pilots. We do not offer theory or point blame. However, we are focused on determining the truth of that fateful day since the United States Government doesn't seem to be very forthcoming with answers."

http://patriotsquestion911.com/pilots.html

Quote:

Commander Ralph Kolstad, U.S. Navy (ret) – Retired commercial airline captain with 27 years experience. Aircraft flown: Boeing 727, 757 and 767, McDonnell Douglas MD-80, and Fokker F-100. Retired fighter pilot. Former Air Combat Instructor, U.S. Navy Fighter Weapons School (Topgun). 20-year Navy career. Aircraft flown: McDonnell Douglas F-4 Phantom, Douglas A-4 Skyhawk, and Grumman F-14 Tomcat. 23,000+ total hours flown.
Statement to this website 8/20/07: "I started questioning the Sept 11, 2001 “story” only days after the event. It just didn't make any sense to me. How could a steel and concrete building collapse after being hit by a Boeing 767? Didn't the engineers design it to withstand a direct hit from a Boeing 707, approximately the same size and weight of the 767? The evidence just didn't add up. ...

At the Pentagon, the pilot of the Boeing 757 did quite a feat of flying. I have 6,000 hours of flight time in Boeing 757’s and 767’s and could not have flown it the way the flight path was described.

I was also a Navy fighter pilot and Air Combat Instructor, U.S. Navy Fighter Weapons School and have experience flying low altitude, high speed aircraft. I could not have done what these beginners did. Something stinks to high heaven!

Where is the damage to the wall of the Pentagon from the wings? Where are the big pieces that always break away in an accident? Where is all the luggage? Where are the miles and miles of wire, cable, and lines that are part and parcel of any large aircraft? Where are the steel engine parts? Where is the steel landing gear? Where is the tail section that would have broken into large pieces?

I also personally knew American Airlines Captain “Chick” Burlingame, who was the captain of Flight 77 which allegedly hit the Pentagon, and I know he would not have given up his airplane to crazies!

And at the Shanksville Pennsylvania impact site, where is any of the wreckage?!!! Of all the pictures I have seen, there is only a hole! Where is any piece of a crashed airplane? Why was the area cordoned off, and no inspection allowed by the normal accident personnel? Where is any evidence at all?

When one starts using his own mind, and not what one was told, there is very little to believe in the official “story”. ...

Every question leads to another question that has not been answered by anyone in authority. This is just the beginning as to why I don’t believe the official “story” and why I want the truth to be told." Link to full statement

Member: Pilots for 9/11 Truth Association Statement: "Pilots for 9/11 Truth is an organization of aviation professionals and pilots throughout the globe that have gathered together for one purpose. We are committed to seeking the truth surrounding the events of the 11th of September 2001. Our main focus concentrates on the four flights, maneuvers performed and the reported pilots. We do not offer theory or point blame. However, we are focused on determining the truth of that fateful day since the United States Government doesn't seem to be very forthcoming with answers."

Ibid

1 Reply

How did the World Trade Center collapse?

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