What on earth happened to the 10 commandments tablet ?

For anyone interested in more info about the whole Ethiopia connection...

Google search: "ark of the covenant" +ethiopia

For these monks to stand in the way of an investigation into the true nature of the artifacts is irrational.

Why are they refusing ?
What are they hiding ?
Why are they refusing the potential to bring a great deal of understanding and help for the human race ?

They stand in the way of the truth. Their OWN conscience should make them step aside so the truth can be found.
They aren't though, so what does that tell you ?

To suggest fighting a war, commando raids, UN action etc... over this is absurd and specious.

I'll make no guesses about what they're thinking. I agree that it's irrational, and I agree that fighting over something like this would be absurd. Besides, I think they never had the ark of the covenant anyway. But what I said is that Asherman is correct in saying no one will be able to investigate this claim further without resorting to the kind of tactics mentioned.

My Grandmother has it. She's been using it as a ashtray.

Heliotrope,

These are your words, "They should be made to reveal what's in there." "They need to be removed."

This is the imposition of "your" will over the religious belief of others. To "make" a religious organization reveal what they regard as Holy and sacrosanct (justified, or not) certainly implies the use of force. How might an artifact maintained sequestered by God's Edict (though all may not agree) be removed without the use of force, or subtrafuge?

What gives anyone the right and authority to coerce others to compromise their religious beliefs? If anyone's religious beliefs can be trampled upon, then we would soon return to the bloody wars of the Reformation. Haven't we had enough wars ranged over religion? Intolerance and chauvinism are the real poisons, not religion per se.

What you seem to be proposing is the very sort of arrogance that is ascribed to the Abrahamic religions. You (Christians, Jews and moslems) think nothing of defiling our temples, shrines and sanctuaries. You steal our sacred objects and carry them away to display in your museums. You impose your notions of behavior on us, and laugh at our sincere religious beliefs as superstitions, etc. Why shouldn't Hindu soldiers seize and carry off the Vatican treasures to be displayed in Bombay? For a change, why not let a Southern Baptist be forced to convert to the worship of Tamabongo. Lets have Jerusalem occupied by Taoists who strictly control who may visit sacred places.

Not religious, you say? Well, how about a return to the subjugation of science to the Church? Remember, Galileo and the Holy Inquisition? What if the study of Quantum Physics were proscribed? Nonsense, of course. Hopefully, we've come to a time when one can not impose their belief system on others. That means, that you can not force a religious organization to give up either an essential point of doctrine, or what they regard as a sacred artifact ... no matter how "good" your intentions.

Only the followers of the Abrahamic faiths believe that the Ten Commandments are the dictates of the one and only God in the Universe. To the rest of us it really doesn't matter much at all. Certainly recovering the Ark would be of no more interest to us than the relic in a Buddhist stupa might mean to a Rabbi, or Mullah. Historically, the Ark has some small interest, but no more than other artifacts from around the same period. Personally, I'm more interested in the secret and sacred ceremonies that take place in the Kiva's of the Southwest, but would never think of trying to force them to be revealed to the world.

Finally, I was not trying to insult you directly, or otherwise. I think your intention was probably well-intentioned ... the advancement of knowledge is after all a worthy goal. However, good intentions are often the instrument of great suffering. Though my references to the use of force (war, embargo, etc.) may seem extreme, they are where your line of reasoning reach their natural conclusion

Haven't you heard that they have been banned from out of grovernment and all the rest of society, when man show that he is ready to follow Gods recommendations they will be revealed.

Thanks for that link Monger.

Hey lets make this the officialsite for all search and inquiry details to finding pieces of the 10 commandment tablets. I am going to try to get some funding to make a documentary about this. Thanks Asherman for getting this off with some good insite.

Asherman, I'm having a great time with this. None of it is personally directed even though I'm quoting here. I'm finding out as much about myself as I am about other things. I get passionate and extremely direct but please, don't take offense.


If that is all that 'removed' means to you then I'd suggest a little more thought in the possible actions you may wish to take. If not, then it's completely obvious that the use of deadly force is not what I meant at all. As you have seen from my subsequent comments.


The right ? What right ? Such artifacts as these have been used for centuries as a justification to maintain the secrecy and the control of religions over the population. They have been used to obscure the truth and to prevent the progress of humankind out from under the bootheel of ALL religions.
If liberation and the throwing off of the most degenerate, corrupt, perverted, murderous and sickening dictator is your goal then you already HAVE the right.
Don't get me wrong here. I don't want war to be made on religious organisations. I want them utterly expunged from all of human history. Annihilated. Deleted. Them, their history, their ways, their ideals, their thoughts destroyed utterly. Root and branch.
This is not the point of this discussion though so I'll leave that here.
The point is that they are standing in the way of the truth, of the discovery of new information and the enlightenment of humans by way of facts and not religious speculation.
This is basically insane.


Indeed we have. And it should stop.
Now, before you start going bananas over my last comment above I will say this : the intolerance and chauvanism are the real poinsons. But exactly where are they directed ? And by whom ?
They come from the religious organisations and are directed at other religious organisations.
So basically it's an in-house fight. Remove the protagonists and you've got rid of one of the main sources of the cancer of lack of progress for the human race.


I am none of these as you've no doubt gathered. Do not assume anything about what I understand.


How can you defile a place by finding out about it or it's contents ?
Or are you suggesting that just because I happen to go into the Basillica/Grand Mosque/temples etc... in search of the truth that I am in someway "unclean" ?
This is, of course, one of the core ideas of all religions. They seem to have a very different idea of the nature of dirt to the rest of people. An idea that makes it something else other than the ground beneath your feet.
And it is irrational and absurd.


This is an absolute disgrace I agree.


Not me dude. I do not condemn the validity anyones beliefs regradless of them. I utterly condemn the people that use religions as an excuse for the hatred, muder, intolerance etc... etc... though.


I didn't say that at all.


Religions have abdicated any so-called moral high ground by prosecuting a continuous war against the rational minds of the human race with the murder of people using their beliefs as a justification.
Religions do nothing other than impose their ideas on other peoples.


Personally I do find the significance attributed to these artifacts absolutely fascinating. I really DO want to know about them. If they can enlighten and help then bring them on ! If they can't then we're no worse off then we were.
I don't know anything about the ceremonies you've mentioned but I'm glad to find there's something else to investigate.
What goes on there ?


Only if one has two points of view and no ability to think of a different solution. War is not the answer. Information is the answer.

Alright, Heliotrope, how can you "make" a religion give up what it considers so "holy" that it would be defiled by being surrendered? How can you remove an artifact from it's religious guardians without the use of force, or subterfuge? Please do give us some examples.

The hostility you express toward religion may taint your objectivity. It is very true that the Abrahamic faiths have a long history of coercion, and conversion by the sword. That is not universally true of all religions. Nor is intolerance and chauvinism exclusive to religion. These deplorable traits seem to be universal and may even be somewhat attenuated by some religious movements. Within the Abrahamic religions, the Quaker Sect is noteworthy for it's tolerance; though I know some Friends who are just as chauvinistic as Savorola. Tolerance generally seems to be easier for us humans to develop than breaking the chains of chauvinism. Our group, whatever it might be, is always thought to be better than The Other. Up until the last fifty years, or so, few even questioned the validity of the chauvinistic behavior of dominant groups. Your hostility to religion certainly appears to condemn the validity of every religious person's beliefs. Such certainty that religions are epso facto bad things is itself as dangerous as the intolerance so characteristic of the Abrahamic religions.

To take any extreme position is very likely to lead to intolerance and chauvinistic behavior toward those with whom we disagree. Practice instead the Middle Way. When I was younger, and more foolish, I'm sure my own expressions of distaste for the behavior of Abrahamic religions was just as hot and hostile as that you express here. To have brought those passions into check, to have developed more tolerance and patience, has really reduced the suffering I personally have to live with. Chill. Paying attention to our own faults, and letting our neighbors be is an important means of living better lives. If my neighbors want to believe the most errant nonsense, that is no skin off of my nose so long as my neighbor is equally tolerant of what they probably regard as my "foolish notions". The proof of the exercise is in the resulting behavior.

If a person behaves in a tolerant manner, then their words and thoughts have limited ability to cause suffering. Tolerant behavior includes the need for awareness of the hurtful nature of our words, and so practicing to become more tolerant we choose our words more carefully. Choosing just the right words to express ourselves without causing any more harm than absolutely necessary requires us to discipline our thoughts. Mindful of our thoughts, our words and actions, we foster tolerance and peaceful resolution of problems. Tolerance is not an uncommon characteristic in many religions and religious sects, it just gets lost in the daily living of people unwilling to empathize with others.

One has to be awfully sure of the "rightness" of their cause before rushing into words and behavior that will likely cause others to suffer. Sometimes we must cause suffering to avoid greater suffering later. A few may suffer that the suffering of the many may be limited. This is where good intentions so often goes awry. The Grand Inquisitors had good intentions as they tortured folks and burned them to death at the stake. after all, what is a little suffering by a single individual if the many are discouraged from falling into mortal sin? The individual may suffer terribly as they slowly burn to death, but if their immortal soul is saved from the eternal fire of Hell to live forever in the presence of God, hasn't the Inquisitor done a good thing? Good intentions, but an evil result. Whenever an individual, or group, is convinced that The Other is so wrong that they should/must be forced to reform their wicked ways, we are in trouble. This is as true when we are talking about mundane political rectitude as when we are talking about religion, or philosophy, or any other damned thing you might conceive of.

You say that you are not a religious person. I believe that, but the Abrahamic religions have largely shaped the history of the West. We are captured by it, and it is bred deep into our ways of looking at things. The foundations of those faiths, I believe, foster intolerance and too easily justify the use of the sword to establish one interpretation of the "Truth" over all others. The West is dominant today, and it's strength and ability to influence all other cultures is still growing. That isn't necessarily a bad thing in and of itself, but the zeal with which the Abrahamic religions crush other religions is very unsettling to religious people of other faiths. Judaism, Christianity and Islam already claim the majority of believers and adherents in the world. Christianity and Islam continue to insist that they alone hold the key to God's Salvation, and that all others are damned. The war engaged in by radical elements of Islam against Israel and the West continually threatens world peace. Chauvinistic elements within Islamic Pakistan and Hindu India may well provide be the next example of using of nuclear weapons.

You may not believe that you are defiling, and insulting the feelings, of others by the uninvited trespass into the sacred confines of a temple, but THEY will be offended. It isn't your belief that counts here, but the beliefs of those you ride rough shod over. BTW, not all religions have some "sacred" spot, or artifact(s). On the other hand, some folks who aren't religious at all have some special place that personally means so much to them that they feel defiled if it is trespassed upon by an intruder. Have you ever been burgled? The anger that a victim has knowing that someone has entered into their private spaces to pry and steal is something to behold. It isn't irrational, nor is it absurd. It is about our human need to feel secure in our most prized territorial possessions ... and no "place" is more easily defiled than our religious precincts and convictions.

For whatever it's worth, though I'm now retired, I once made a pretty fair living "thinking outside the box", in finding innovative solutions to complex problems, etc. There are indeed many ways of responding to a situation/problem, and mostly folks overlook all but the obvious. However, there generally is an optimum solution and sometime the obvious conclusion IS the best one available. Ocham's Razor is mighty sharp.

I'm having a think.

Helio,

Tell us more about the Kivas and the ceremony svp.

Actually Algis it's Asherman that mentioned them. I don't know anything about them apart from what I have on a preliminary Google for them.
Ask the man who knows.

The secrets of the Kivas are well-guarded, and outsiders are seldom able to catch more than an intellectual glimpse of Pueblo ceremonies. I'm Anglo, and though we have dear friends who are members of the Pueblos, unlikely to ever know very much. The Pueblos have tenaciously held to their native religion since the Spanish first came into this country. Nominally, many of the Indians are Catholic, but the real religious beliefs are much more in tune with the Old Ways. The Spanish tried very hard to stamp out the native religion and convert their peons to a more acceptable Franciscan flavor of Christianity. The pueblos were punished very harshly for their persistence in following their ancient beliefs. In 1680, the Pueblos rose and kicked the Spanish out of New Mexico. The Revolt wasn't particularly bloody, and the Spanish were permitted to retreat down the Rio Grande without undue harassment. Some priests and Grandees were killed and all the foreign churchess were destroyed. The return to the Old Ways was doomed to last only about a decade before the Spanish reconquered New Mexico.

The new Spanish administration was much less harsh, but they still insisted that the Indians become good Catholics. The Pueblos returned to a nominal Christianity, and celebrated many Christian holidays with native ceremonies. When the North Americans took over after the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo, the dual religious complexion of the pueblos remained. Toward the end of the 19th century, and at the beginning of the 20th century, a number of anthropologists conducted studies of the various pueblos. Some were even adopted into tribal groups like the Zunis. Photographs were only forbidden within the Kivas and at the most private of the Pueblo religious ceremonies. The Pueblos felt, and still feel, that their trust was betrayed.

Tourists crowd into normally almost deserted Pueblo plazas to gawk at solemn religious ceremonies as if they were attending a Las Vegas nightclub show. Strangers seem to have no embarrassment of just walking into a person's kitchen as if it were a museum exhibit. "Where are the feathers?" "Why aren't they dressed up properly today?" Far too often visitors forget that their intrusions into village life are not particularly welcome. To many of the Indians, it isn't unnatural to wonder if nothing is sacred and beyond reach of these hordes of bug-eyed intruders.

The modern world of the Anglos is pushing in upon the pueblo's ancient ways. Many of the children go away to find material success in the Anglo world and forget their culture. English is increasingly reducing the number of people who use their native languages as their primary means of communicating. Agriculture and livestock once were the principle means of maintaining the People in balance with the environment and world. Now, a sizable number of the People are a part of the cash economy and Agricultural fields and irrigation systems that have been in use for a thousand years are becoming neglected. Electricity, automobiles and television make the slow pace and subsistence traditional life less attractive to the young. The Elders and tribal leaders are fighting a constant battle of cultural survival. Some Pueblos are very conservative, and strictly limit intrusion by outsiders into their villages. Others recognizing the economic benefits of tourism, charge large fees for parking, and permits to photograph the landscape on their reservation.

Art has been a major bridge between the Old Ways and the new. Pueblo arts, especially pottery making has provided a creative outlet and cash revenue for several generations caught in the transition. Pueblo pottery once was primarily utilitarian, but today is High Art sought by wealthy and discriminating patrons of the arts. A bigger and richer cash cow has been Indian Casinos. They take the White Man's money and keep them occupied far away from the Plaza. Many tribes are using their wealth to develop economic opportunities that are less destructive of the Old Ways, and in taking control over the education of the children.

The anthropologists wrote scholarly treatises on the Indians, their culture and religion, and some of them became famous. To reveal what was only reluctantly confided was regarded as a betrayal. Some of the religious practices and beliefs of the Pueblos does not easily fit into the weltanschauung of the dominant culture. The Pueblos have become very shy and reluctant to trust that their beliefs will be respected. Some secrets of the Kiva have never been revealed to outsiders, or even some of the pueblo villagers themselves.

The outlines of the Pueblo religious convictions can be found in the Anthropology books. Very interesting stuff.

I did a lot of research and wrote quite a lengthy paper on this topic. Yes, the tablets along with Aaron's Rod and Manna bread are inside the Ark of the Covenant. Read Kings I & II in the Old Testament and you'll learn a great deal more about it. However, my theory is much different than all the others. I believe that the Phoenicians, as a favor to the Israelites before they were invaded by the Babylonians, transported the Ark to the U.S. and (sparing you a long story), it was ultimately buried at Locust Grove, Ohio in the Great Serpent Mound (We know the Phonicians were here during that period). The Phoenicians disappeared and so did the Moundbuilding cultures. This ties to the earlier question which arose about God striking down the man who touched the Ark to keep it from falling over. There was a certain process for transporting and for being in the presence of the Ark. God permitted no deviation. The Levites (not an actual "tribe" but the priests of the Israelites) were the only ones permitted to deal with the ark, and the, only at certain times and only in the proper arena (e.g., Tabernacle, Sanctum Sanctorum).
I believe that the Ancient Free and Accepted Masons (Freemasons) now hold the Ark in secret until it is called for by the Jews as a facet of the rebuilding of Solomon's Temple.
When you see the Levites (in training now) set the cornerstone for the new Temple, LOOK OUT, FOLKS!

Hey, Grotto, welcome to A2K!

Are you sure it wasn't Locust Grove Oklahoma. There's mounds there too. ??



Um.... Never mind.


Joe

The Levites are a tribe. I'm a Levite, & I'm no Jewish priest.
As for the rest of your "research", I'm going with Joe's "Um, Nevermind", and I'll add a resounding "Eh, whatever".

Hail to Merry, Joe and Monger
Thank ya, Merry.
Joe, nope, I mean Locust Grove, Ohio. The Great Serpent Mound is in Ohio but, aside from that, the GSM has a deeper significance relative to the Ark than do the many other mounds which are found from Mississippi to Canada. The GSM lies withing the mysterious giant "Cryptoexplosion Structure" which was "discovered" by early Ohio explorers who analyzed soil samples and could not figure out why "the bottom is on the top and vice versa." In other words, a gigantic crater which can only be seen from the air, about 10 miles across. We still do not know for certain what caused it but it is profound, that in all the nation, the moundbuilders chose that particular location to build the GSM. (Divine Intervention?) There are other unique facets of this mound but that is the primary one.
Sorry, Monger, no offense intended. Of course, in contemporary times, you're correct in pointing out that not every Levite is a priest. It's just that the only ones being currently trained for the Priesthood are Levites as that is the Old Testament Law on the matter. I made the comment about the tribes because the Bible and all other sources I have researched talk about "The Twelve Tribes of Israel" which does not include the Levites as a part of that number. It's just a word, really, and I too think of the original Jewish Wilderness wanderers as having 13 tribes but can find no source which cites the Levites as anything other than the Jewish Priesthood. Help me out here. Thanks.