15
   

FREEDOM IS RESTORED: 1st AMENDMENT WINS!

 
 
Merry Andrew
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Jan, 2010 11:29 am
@Cycloptichorn,
Quote:
I am filled with pity for you, sir.


I'm afraid that's just wasted effort, Cyclo. This dude doesn't understand the concept of pity any more than he understands charity, human decency, the core principles of American democracy or the true function of a phonetic alphabet. It's a sad, sad case, I admit. But, if anything, what I feel is a sense of utter frustration, rather than pity. Arguing with David is like talking to a bright but autistic child and expecting to receive a response that makes some sense to a 'normal' person.
0 Replies
 
Irishk
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Jan, 2010 11:43 am
@Cycloptichorn,
Well, they don't call it 'big labor' for nothing LOL. It's all relative, I suppose. If you consider nearly half a billion dollars ($385M+) the unions spent on the 2008 presidential election insignificant, then maybe you have a point. Almost all (98%) of the unions millions go to one party (guess who) while corporations spend on both sides.

The good news is that the Court also upheld disclosure requirements, so we'll be able to see who gave to whom. Some pundit on CNN last night had a great idea ---- make the politicians wear sponsorship labels (like the race car drivers do) to see who is buying whom LOL!

Anyway, I do see your side of it and as I said, I haven't yet read the dissenters' opinions so I'm still in the process of making up my mind on this one.
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Jan, 2010 11:48 am
@Cycloptichorn,
Cycloptichorn wrote:

David wrote:

Its very rong, unnatural and unAmerican.


You are simply incorrect, and I submit that you understand little about 'being American.'
You are appealing to the worst of humanity's nature, pretending it is a virtue. It is not.

Greed is a vice, not a virtue. It leads humans to abandon their humanity in pursuit of crass material goods.

I am filled with pity for you, sir.

Cycloptichorn
I reject your reasoning and your pity.
I was gonna get some counter-pity for u,
but I decided it was not worth the effort.

I agree with Andy, who points out that your pity is a WASTE.
Keep it for yourself; I don 't want it.





David
djjd62
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Jan, 2010 11:48 am
@Irishk,
when will the unions learn

in canada the unions mostly support a social democrat party, (the New Democratic Party) that rarely holds power (some provinces, but never nationally)

0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Jan, 2010 11:52 am
@Irishk,
Quote:
Well, they don't call it 'big labor' for nothing LOL. It's all relative, I suppose. If you consider nearly half a billion dollars ($385M+) the unions spent on the 2008 presidential election insignificant, then maybe you have a point.


Yeah, that sounds like a lot - until you realize that Bank of America, for example, had a marketing budget of 2.8 BILLION dollars in 2008. They could drop that much money, every cycle, and not even blink.

Besides, as Yglesias points out here: it's not even the money they spend, it's the THREAT of that money which matters:

http://yglesias.thinkprogress.org/archives/2010/01/money-for-nothing-and-votes-for-free.php

Quote:
Money for Nothing, and Votes for Free

http://yglesias.thinkprogress.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/cash-wad-1.jpeg

Something worth mentioning in the context of the Citizens United decision, though not directly tied to the issue at hand there, is that a group doesn’t actually need to spend vast sums of money to have a decisive influence on politics. It just needs to be able to credibly threaten to spend said sums. Bank of America, for example, dedicates $2.3 billion to marketing in 2008 so it’s clear that they’ve got the budget to mount a $100 million series of scathing attacks on a Senator who pisses them off and basically laugh that off (and note that in 2004 total spending on Senate campaigns was just $400 million). And if you can have it be the case that just one Senator goes down to defeat for having pissed off BofA then everyone else will learn the lesson and avoid pissing them off in the future. You don’t need to actually sustain that volume of campaign spending.

I’ve seen a lot of jokes about the idea of corporate-sponsored candidates and such. But the real issue here isn’t so much affirmative activity on the part of businesses as it is negative activity on the part of politicians. We’ll be looking at one further step toward a political system in which large business interests have a de facto veto over all policy questions. Politicians will still be free, of course, to have feisty debates about which party is more to blame for the budget deficit, about who loves the pledge of allegiance more, about who’s more determined to pretend that there won’t be bailouts after the next financial panic, etc.


Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Jan, 2010 11:54 am
@OmSigDAVID,
Quote:

I reject your reasoning and your pity.
I was gonna get some counter-pity for u,
but I decided it was not worth the effort.

I agree with Andy, who points out that your pity is a WASTE.
Keep it for yourself; I don 't want it.

David


It's non-negotiable. You've earned it, so enjoy it.

Cycloptichorn
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Jan, 2010 11:58 am

What I care about MOST is that the censorship is over.
Special Interest Groups can freely communicate with their members
telling them which politician has helped them and who has harmed them.

That is very important.





David
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Jan, 2010 11:59 am
@Cycloptichorn,
Cycloptichorn wrote:

Quote:

I reject your reasoning and your pity.
I was gonna get some counter-pity for u,
but I decided it was not worth the effort.

I agree with Andy, who points out that your pity is a WASTE.
Keep it for yourself; I don 't want it.

David


It's non-negotiable. You've earned it, so enjoy it.

Cycloptichorn
No, I am not accepting it.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Jan, 2010 12:01 pm
@OmSigDAVID,
OmSigDAVID wrote:


What I care about MOST is that the censorship is over.
Special Interest Groups can freely communicate with their members
telling them which politician has helped them and who has harmed them.

That is very important.

David


They already could do that, nothing prevented them from doing so before. You don't understand this ruling at all. Not that this is surprising.

Quote:
No, I am not accepting it.


You don't have an option in the matter; it isn't something that you get to choose to accept or not. It has been imposed upon you.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
engineer
 
  3  
Reply Fri 22 Jan, 2010 12:36 pm
@OmSigDAVID,
OmSigDAVID wrote:

What I care about MOST is that the censorship is over.
Special Interest Groups can freely communicate with their members
telling them which politician has helped them and who has harmed them.

But no one has ever restricted such communications. That is what all those voter guides are, communication to members and others about what an organization believes. What this does is allow corporations free reign. Earlier you said you felt this was a win for the little guy and I responded it was not. Have you considered my argument?
Irishk
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Jan, 2010 01:26 pm
@engineer,
Quote:
But no one has ever restricted such communications.


Under McCain/Feingold there were such restrictions. (See the NRA's reasons for opposition).
engineer
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Jan, 2010 01:33 pm
@Irishk,
Do you have a decent link? My search for "NRA reasons for opposing mccain feingold" produced a lot of anti-McCain stuff and worries about advertising restrictions.
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Jan, 2010 01:33 pm
@Irishk,
Irishk wrote:

Quote:
But no one has ever restricted such communications.


Under McCain/Feingold there were such restrictions. (See the NRA's reasons for opposition).


No, they were not restricted from talking to their own MEMBERS; they were restricted from general advertising.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
roger
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Jan, 2010 01:44 pm
@engineer,
I am a member of the NRA. From the material I have received from prior to elections, I don't believe they have been restricted in any way from communicating with their members. The public at large, yes; members, no.
squinney
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Jan, 2010 01:49 pm
Actually, more specifically, I believe they were restricted to not advertising on behalf of / in support of one candidate over another within 30 days of the election.

Feel free to correct me.

Now they will be able to spend limitless amounts on advertsising straight thru. One big issue will be accuracy and timing. If the NRA, GE, NAACP, Bank of America, etc start running a negative ad about the opposition that contains lies or is misleading / inaccurate the week before the election, there is no time to correct it AND the candidate will end up spending what money they have for advertising to correct the record.
Irishk
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Jan, 2010 01:49 pm
@engineer,
http://www.nrapvf.org/News/Article.aspx?ID=60

Scroll down a bit to see their arguments against.
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Jan, 2010 01:50 pm
@squinney,
squinney wrote:

Actually, more specifically, I believe they were restricted to not advertising on behalf of / in support of one candidate over another within 30 days of the election.

Feel free to correct me.

Now they will be able to spend limitless amounts on advertsising straight thru. One big issue will be accuracy and timing. If the NRA, GE, NAACP, Bank of America, etc start running a negative ad about the opposition that contains lies or is misleading / inaccurate the week before the election, there is no time to correct it AND the candidate will end up spending what money they have for advertising to correct the record.


If they even can; what prevents CNN, GE and Disney from refusing to run ads which are counter to their corporate interests on their networks?

This decision is a can o' worms for sure

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Jan, 2010 01:53 pm
@Irishk,
Irishk wrote:

http://www.nrapvf.org/News/Article.aspx?ID=60

Scroll down a bit to see their arguments against.


Lol, the arguments against are rather specious. I especially like this one -

Quote:
S.27 will silence all of the voices of all of the individuals who support virtually every cause during elections through organized "issue advocacy."


Is there no recognition at all, that this didn't happen after McCain-Fein was passed?

Cycloptichorn
parados
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Jan, 2010 01:55 pm
@squinney,
Quote:
Actually, more specifically, I believe they were restricted to not advertising on behalf of / in support of one candidate over another within 30 days of the election.

And then only in a manner that reached a minimum of 50,000 people if I read the opinion correctly.
Irishk
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Jan, 2010 01:58 pm
@roger,
They were restricted through censorship, though. In other words, they could communicate, during a specified time period (blackout), with their members but were restricted from mentioning a specific candidate by name and I think also from even describing a candidate's stance on a particular issue.

Here's another opinion on the censorship in McCain/Feingold (not sure how partisan it will be seen, so don't beat me up LOL):

http://www.examiner.com/a-279321~Bradley_A__Smith__Yes__senator__McCain_Feingold_does_censor_political_speech.html
 

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