15
   

FREEDOM IS RESTORED: 1st AMENDMENT WINS!

 
 
hawkeye10
 
  0  
Reply Mon 25 Jan, 2010 07:16 pm
@OCCOM BILL,
my point is that Dionne is a well respected political and social commentator, those of you who paint those of us who are calling for revolt against this court and this court ruling as being nutty/ignorant......whatever....have just had your argument run out of gas.

Time to deal with the question, to stop tarring those who oppose your position. As many people are now pointing out revolution against the established power centers is a long American tradition. Those of use who claim that it is time to do it again have a boat load of arguments, as well as a rapidly swinging population that looks ready to follow the would be leaders of the revolution.

Too much has gone wrong with America, are current leaders show no inclination that they will move to fix American problems, so the citizens will take matters into our own hands.
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Mon 25 Jan, 2010 07:21 pm
@hawkeye10,
hawkeye10 wrote:
my point is that Dionne is a well respected political and social commentator, those of you who paint those of us who are calling for revolt against this court and this court ruling as being nutty/ignorant......whatever....have just had your argument run out of gas.
Foolishness.



hawkeye10 wrote:

Time to deal with the question, to stop tarring those who oppose your position. As many people are now pointing out revolution against the established power centers is a long American tradition. Those of use who claim that it is time to do it again have a boat load of arguments, as well as a rapidly swinging population that looks ready to follow the would be leaders of the revolution.

Too much has gone wrong with America, are current leaders show no inclination that they will move to fix American problems, so the citizens will take matters into our own hands.
U r joining a military revolution, Hawkeye ?
0 Replies
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Mon 25 Jan, 2010 09:45 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Cycloptichorn wrote:

I'm asking Thomas the same on the other thread: Do you really not care about the effects this will have?
Am I crazy about the idea of big shots buying massive spots to convince ignorant fools who look no further than a myriad of 30 second spots every 4 years to decide who should be King? Of course not. However, M/F was woefully ill equipped to change it anyway. You're still acting like it was working. F-911? Swiftboaters for truth? Any and every other 527 that anyone with deep pockets can put together?

STOP pretending it was working.

And STOP pretending we're now heading into uncharted territory too. We've been on this path for centuries and only briefly took a largely ineffectual detour.

And STOP dodging this: What is the difference between "F-911" and "Hillary the Movie"? Any law that allows those crockumentaries to be distinguished is an abomination in itself… even if it didn’t violate the First Amendment… which this one very definitely did.

Meanwhile, I can stand on my soapbox and advocate at the top of my lunges that which you would spend a lifetime opposing at the top of yours. That’s freedom. That’s worth defending. If I choose to spend my money paying others to stand on soapboxes for me, that’s none of yours, nor your government’s damned business either.

At this same time, Rupert Murdoch can steer an entire herd of sheep 24/7, from sea to shining sea and there isn’t a damn thing anyone can do about it. Do you think Congress should try to address that too? Perhaps pass legislation that mandates that all News Stations be truly “Fair and Balanced”? This would be a terrific plan in some utopian fairytale… but not in the real world. In the real world; any such law would then have to be enforced and such enforcement would be up to someone’s discretion. Whose? Who can we trust to even handedly dole out our most precious freedoms?

If you answer anyone but NO ONE, you’re fooling yourself. Our founding fathers were wise enough to know that if government gets control of information, politicians will do whatever they can to wield that power to their own political advantage. To large extent, it isn’t even just the Left v. Right thing that we have to fear: Whenever it’s politically expedient to do so, both sides will happily unite against the very people they represent. Look at the way the two parties have barricaded the door against 3rd parties for instance. In the 92 election, Ross Perot doubled his following at the Presidential Debates and went on to take 19% of the popular vote, despite making disastrous campaign decisions. So scared were the two major parties in the following election, they barred his inclusion in the 96 debates and in so doing effectively removed any chance of his building enough momentum at the debates to compete, as he did just 4 years before.

And you want me to agree to forfeit some of my First Amendment freedom to these crooked assholes? Do you really think that slope isn’t slippery? Make no mistake, if they can ban distribution of a movie for 60 days; they can do it for longer next time around. This constitutes book burning and it is repugnant to the constitution and our very way of life.

On a scale from 1 to 10, with 1 being my soapbox and 10 being Rupert Murdoch’s soapbox; every other entity whose speech may be impeded is a medium-size player… and most every politician seeking to regulate it will be mostly interested steering the rules to favor their own party. **** that. I’ll keep my constitutional rights, thank you very much.

While I actually do believe McCain’s and Feingold’s hearts were in the right place; their bill nonetheless expanded the power of the government into my personal space. Whatever good may come from such usurpation is not worth the risks in my book.

Frankly, I’m probably standing all alone here, but I think the whole business of limiting contributions and/or media is just flat out wrong and probably unconstitutional to boot. Why would we ever be afraid of more information? Barrack Obama probably had over a billion dollars behind his campaign before you even try to assign a value to the multitude of pundits lining up to kiss his ass. He out-spent McCain 2 to 1 and you have to admit it’s worth pondering whether or not we’re really getting what was advertised. At the end of the day, every one of us is responsible for our own lot in life and I don’t see a compelling reason that anyone shouldn’t be able to spend his or her own money any way he or she sees fit.

A better law in my book, would be to simply insist every non human person disclose every penny contributed and to where, to allow human persons to judge these entities actions and contributions for themselves. I don’t believe human persons should be limited in any way and nor do I think human persons should have any requirement to disclose anything. <-- This I believe constitutes a violation of the individual’s 4th amendment right to privacy. In short, I don’t think the government has any business telling me how to spend my money, and I don’t think it’s any of your business either. I’ll respect your rights as well.
maporsche
 
  1  
Reply Mon 25 Jan, 2010 09:58 pm
@OCCOM BILL,
Well said O'Bill.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  -1  
Reply Mon 25 Jan, 2010 10:12 pm
@OCCOM BILL,
I reject your Slippery Slope argument. It is a logical fallacy, and there's really nothing more to it than that. McCain-Feingold, while ineffectual in ways, did not lead to a curtailing of your or anyone's free speech at all; it only prevented troublemakers (on both sides of the ideological isle) from utilizing large piles of corporate money to attack candidates who could not effectively respond.

Do you honestly think we are in an environment where meaningful restrictions on this can be passed? I don't really think so, because too many in our Congress already rely on corporate money for election. Once the fetters are off, that number will only rise.

Quote:
At the end of the day, every one of us is responsible for our own lot in life and I don’t see a compelling reason that anyone shouldn’t be able to spend his or her own money any way he or she sees fit.


It's ******* sad that you have turned out to be another person who actively wants the rich to completely run our nation, Bill. Truly.

It's like you've taken this idea - that free speech is awesome, which I agree with - and ran with it all the way to the point where you propose that there be no rules governing speech at all, because hey - you're gonna infringe on me someday, buddy! No matter the wisdom of the rule in practical matters, it violates what you consider to be inviolable. That sort of hidebound thinking leads to inflexibility in real life and bad results every time.

Just, consider the bigger picture.

Cycloptichorn
Thomas
 
  2  
Reply Mon 25 Jan, 2010 10:58 pm
@OCCOM BILL,
Occom Bill wrote:
What is the difference between "F-911" and "Hillary the Movie"?

Under the now-rejected law, there would have been at least three important distinctions -- all of them independent of the movies' content.

  • Moore released Fahrenheit 9/11 in movie theaters. He didn't release it through broadcast, cable, or satellite.
  • Moore released Fahrenheit 9/11 in June 2004 -- well outside the 60-day window before the general election.
  • Fahrenheit 9/11 was susceptible of reasonable interpretations "other than as an appeal to vote for or against a specific candidate." I myself, for example, interpret the movie as a polemic against a whole culture of terrorism scare, of which Bush was only a part. This interpretation is reasonable, because I say so myself.

Each of these distinctions by themselves would have redeemed Fahrenheit 911, but not Hillary. See Stevens's dissent, pages 26 and 27, describing the various prongs of the rejected law.
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 Jan, 2010 01:37 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Emotion is a sorry substitute for substance, book burner. Razz The United States is an adversarial place and candidates who can't effectively respond to criticism should simply stand down. It's a shame that lies travel half way around the world before the truth can get its pants on, but it is what it is and it always will be. No matter how well meaning your attempt to regulate good manners into the election process may be, it is an ill-fated endeavor that can only result in some government asshole deciding what is fit for my consumption. Thank you, no, I'd rather make those decisions for myself (while you stand underneath your government umbrella and curse the still inevitable rain.)
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 Jan, 2010 01:43 pm
@Thomas,
Thomas wrote:

Occom Bill wrote:
What is the difference between "F-911" and "Hillary the Movie"?

Under the now-rejected law, there would have been at least three important distinctions -- all of them independent of the movies' content.

  • Moore released Fahrenheit 9/11 in movie theaters. He didn't release it through broadcast, cable, or satellite.
  • Moore released Fahrenheit 9/11 in June 2004 -- well outside the 60-day window before the general election.
  • Fahrenheit 9/11 was susceptible of reasonable interpretations "other than as an appeal to vote for or against a specific candidate." I myself, for example, interpret the movie as a polemic against a whole culture of terrorism scare, of which Bush was only a part. This interpretation is reasonable, because I say so myself.

Each of these distinctions by themselves would have redeemed Fahrenheit 911, but not Hillary. See Stevens's dissent, pages 26 and 27, describing the various prongs of the rejected law.
Fair enough, Thomas. You have indeed distinguished them.

Personally, I don't see the "broadcast, cable, or satellite" as a meaningful distinction, in part because both films would require advertising to maximize their respective producer's R.O.I.s. And again, I do not like the United States government butting in and telling me what I should or shouldn't be watching, reading, or listening to (with or without a timeframe.) I question your final distinction, as Moore himself attempted to crank up the terrorism scare by implying the evil republicans were instrumental in it. I don’t think that movie could have been any more about suggesting Bush was unfit for office, but that’s subjective enough to not waste time arguing about.
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 Jan, 2010 01:44 pm
@OCCOM BILL,
OCCOM BILL wrote:

Emotion is a sorry substitute for substance, book burner. Razz


That's a scurrilous name to call someone. Never did I advocate burning any book. You are exaggerating for effect.

Quote:
The United States is an adversarial place and candidates who can't effectively respond to criticism should simply stand down.


Unrealistic and unworkable in modern society. This ignores what can and will happen in the last stages of long and expensive campaigns.

Quote:
It's a shame that lies travel half way around the world before the truth can get its pants on, but it is what it is and it always will be. No matter how well meaning your attempt to regulate good manners into the election process may be, it is an ill-fated endeavor that can only result in some government asshole deciding what is fit for my consumption.


Nobody is worried about your consumption, Bill. You are arguing for a removal of all rules and restrictions regarding elections here which is plainly silly.

Endeavors are not ill-fated simply because you declare them so. Can you point to any actual harm that was done to you or your ability to make cogent decisions about candidates under McCain-Feingold? No. The worst you can do is claim that it wasn't strong enough and that companies could get around it, which is an argument for strengthening the rule, not abandoning it.

Quote:
Thank you, no, I'd rather make those decisions for myself (while you stand underneath your government umbrella and curse the still inevitable rain.)


'Making decisions for yourself' isn't what we are talking about here at all, but rather, should our elections be governed by rules, or not?

The absolute worst evils are perpetrated by those who feel their defense of principles trumps all other concerns. This is essentially what you are proposing - Yay free speech for non-human entities, and damn the consequences upon our system!

Cycloptichorn
Thomas
 
  2  
Reply Tue 26 Jan, 2010 01:46 pm
@OCCOM BILL,
Occom Bill wrote:
Moore himself attempted to crank up the terrorism scare by implying the evil republicans were instrumental in it.

There are non-evil ones?
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 Jan, 2010 02:14 pm
@OCCOM BILL,
Occom Bill wrote:
I question your final distinction, as Moore himself attempted to crank up the terrorism scare by implying the evil republicans were instrumental in it.

Seriously, though, the distinction stands even so. Attacking 'evil Republicans' was fine with the overruled statute, and so was attacking 'evil Democrats'. You only got on the wrong side of the law if you went one step further: You had to attack a single candidate, identified by name. Although Stevens's side lost the case, its argument is plausible. The court could have reasonably found that the statute was narrowly tailored. It just didn't, and that was reasonable, too.
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 Jan, 2010 02:35 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Cycloptichorn wrote:

OCCOM BILL wrote:

Emotion is a sorry substitute for substance, book burner. Razz


That's a scurrilous name to call someone. Never did I advocate burning any book. You are exaggerating for effect.
Yes, I know, but I laughed out loud when the thought occurred to me so I had to share.

Cycloptichorn wrote:
Quote:
The United States is an adversarial place and candidates who can't effectively respond to criticism should simply stand down.


Unrealistic and unworkable in modern society. This ignores what can and will happen in the last stages of long and expensive campaigns.

Quote:
It's a shame that lies travel half way around the world before the truth can get its pants on, but it is what it is and it always will be. No matter how well meaning your attempt to regulate good manners into the election process may be, it is an ill-fated endeavor that can only result in some government asshole deciding what is fit for my consumption.


Nobody is worried about your consumption, Bill. You are arguing for a removal of all rules and restrictions regarding elections here which is plainly silly.

Endeavors are not ill-fated simply because you declare them so. Can you point to any actual harm that was done to you or your ability to make cogent decisions about candidates under McCain-Feingold? No. The worst you can do is claim that it wasn't strong enough and that companies could get around it, which is an argument for strengthening the rule, not abandoning it.
? Would you also argue that ineffective anti-drug legislation should be beefed up because of it's inevitable failure? I strongly disagree.

Cycloptichorn wrote:
Quote:
Thank you, no, I'd rather make those decisions for myself (while you stand underneath your government umbrella and curse the still inevitable rain.)


'Making decisions for yourself' isn't what we are talking about here at all, but rather, should our elections be governed by rules, or not?

The absolute worst evils are perpetrated by those who feel their defense of principles trumps all other concerns. This is essentially what you are proposing - Yay free speech for non-human entities, and damn the consequences upon our system!
Stop beating the straw out of that poor fella, would ya? If I want to watch Hillary: The Movie, I should be allowed to. If I want to sell Hillary: The Movie, I should be allowed to. These freedoms are guaranteed me by the constitution and every restriction constitutes an encroachment on those rights. I see no good reason forfeit these rights so politicians can play cat and mouse with the medium sized fish, while all the while the whales roam free.
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 Jan, 2010 02:39 pm
@Thomas,
Thomas wrote:

Occom Bill wrote:
I question your final distinction, as Moore himself attempted to crank up the terrorism scare by implying the evil republicans were instrumental in it.

Seriously, though, the distinction stands even so. Attacking 'evil Republicans' was fine with the overruled statute, and so was attacking 'evil Democrats'. You only got on the wrong side of the law if you went one step further: You had to attack a single candidate, identified by name. Although Stevens's side lost the case, its argument is plausible. The court could have reasonably found that the statute was narrowly tailored. It just didn't, and that was reasonable, too.
I reasonably disagree. The intended target of Moore's film couldn't have been any clearer and he landed more than a few solid blows.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 Jan, 2010 02:51 pm
@OCCOM BILL,
Quote:
? Would you also argue that ineffective anti-drug legislation should be beefed up because of it's inevitable failure? I strongly disagree.


Sure I would. But you seem to be making a counter-argument: that we should do away with ALL drug laws, because they are ineffective, and replace them with nothing.

I use drugs from time to time, but that doesn't prevent me from recognizing the distinction between those which should be legal and those which are just plain toxic and incredibly damaging to society. I would support smarter, tougher laws against extremely bad drugs while loosening them for lesser drugs such as alcohol, nicotine and marijuana.

There's nothing wrong with getting rid of bad laws if you're replacing them with good laws that accomplish the original effect; but to get rid of them with no plan to replace them or ability to do so is foolish, if the original problem persists - which in this case it surely does.

Corporate money spent on elections is a cancer on our electoral system. Promoting more of it is a bad idea. It has become so expensive to mount a modern campaign as to basically redefine the way we run them; this will only compound that problem further and further.

Cycloptichorn
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 Jan, 2010 03:41 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Cycloptichorn wrote:

Quote:
? Would you also argue that ineffective anti-drug legislation should be beefed up because of it's inevitable failure? I strongly disagree.


Sure I would. But you seem to be making a counter-argument: that we should do away with ALL drug laws, because they are ineffective, and replace them with nothing.
Almost correct. I support minimal regulation (to protect children); n0t prohibition. The 18th amendment was a disaster and the 21st was the cure. No drug savages more innocents than alcohol, but the prohibition-cure is worse than the disease. The unintended (but imminently predictable) drug prohibition has proven to be just as big of a failure. Are there any drugs you couldn't procure by the end of the day today?

Cycloptichorn wrote:
Corporate money spent on elections is a cancer on our electoral system. Promoting more of it is a bad idea. It has become so expensive to mount a modern campaign as to basically redefine the way we run them; this will only compound that problem further and further.
We just had a Billion dollar election, before this decision... and the best fundraiser in history didn't need corporate money to raise his truly astonishing war chest. Expensive is here to stay, with or without corporate contributions. I suspect you’re opinion is severely tainted by a belief that limiting or even eliminating corporate contributions aids your political party. That ain’t cool.
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 Jan, 2010 05:22 pm
@OCCOM BILL,
Quote:
Almost correct. I support minimal regulation (to protect children); n0t prohibition. The 18th amendment was a disaster and the 21st was the cure. No drug savages more innocents than alcohol, but the prohibition-cure is worse than the disease. The unintended (but imminently predictable) drug prohibition has proven to be just as big of a failure. Are there any drugs you couldn't procure by the end of the day today?


Well, yeah. I would have a hard time getting acid, meth, coke, crack, shrooms. These things aren't as available as many would pretend. Sure, I know people who know people who can get me those things, if I wanted 'em. Maybe. But it's hardly as easy as you make it out to be, and many of the people in the biz that I know won't touch such things, specifically due to the penalties for doing so.

Quote:
We just had a Billion dollar election, before this decision... and the best fundraiser in history didn't need corporate money to raise his truly astonishing war chest. Expensive is here to stay, with or without corporate contributions.


You'd better re-define 'expensive.' The total amount spent by Obama and McCain combined pales next to that which corporations can spend. A single 'big bank' can spend more than McCain-Obama did, combined, on an election - without batting an eye. Exxon-mobil could do so straight out of profits.

All of this will serve to make the donation of the common man useless. When the combined forces of the country aren't enough to match that of a few wealthy corporations, the power no longer lies with those citizens.

Quote:
I suspect you’re opinion is severely tainted by a belief that limiting or even eliminating corporate contributions aids your political party. That ain’t cool.


I suspect that removing limits helps Republicans, and why wouldn't I? They are the party of 'no regulations.' They are the party of cutting corporate taxes. They are the party of no environmental regulations. They are the party of tort limitations. In short, if it's a position that helps Corporations, Republicans are for it. To pretend that this won't directly benefit the Republican party is a joke; you know it will, Bill. You just don't have a problem with that, apparently.

Cycloptichorn
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 Jan, 2010 05:54 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Cycloptichorn wrote:

Quote:
Almost correct. I support minimal regulation (to protect children); n0t prohibition. The 18th amendment was a disaster and the 21st was the cure. No drug savages more innocents than alcohol, but the prohibition-cure is worse than the disease. The unintended (but imminently predictable) drug prohibition has proven to be just as big of a failure. Are there any drugs you couldn't procure by the end of the day today?


Well, yeah. I would have a hard time getting acid, meth, coke, crack, shrooms. These things aren't as available as many would pretend. Sure, I know people who know people who can get me those things, if I wanted 'em. Maybe. But it's hardly as easy as you make it out to be, and many of the people in the biz that I know won't touch such things, specifically due to the penalties for doing so.
Well I think you begrudgingly admitted you could get just about any drug you wanted, in 24 hours, yes? And if that doesn't drive the point home, try this question; were drugs harder to get when you were 17?

Cycloptichorn wrote:
Quote:
We just had a Billion dollar election, before this decision... and the best fundraiser in history didn't need corporate money to raise his truly astonishing war chest. Expensive is here to stay, with or without corporate contributions.


You'd better re-define 'expensive.' The total amount spent by Obama and McCain combined pales next to that which corporations can spend. A single 'big bank' can spend more than McCain-Obama did, combined, on an election - without batting an eye. Exxon-mobil could do so straight out of profits.

All of this will serve to make the donation of the common man useless. When the combined forces of the country aren't enough to match that of a few wealthy corporations, the power no longer lies with those citizens.
So you keep saying, but I don't think you're being realistic. Do let me know when you hear of any corporation donating a BILLION dollars to a campaign.

Cycloptichorn wrote:
Quote:
I suspect you’re opinion is severely tainted by a belief that limiting or even eliminating corporate contributions aids your political party. That ain’t cool.


I suspect that removing limits helps Republicans, and why wouldn't I? They are the party of 'no regulations.' They are the party of cutting corporate taxes. They are the party of no environmental regulations. They are the party of tort limitations. In short, if it's a position that helps Corporations, Republicans are for it. To pretend that this won't directly benefit the Republican party is a joke; you know it will, Bill. You just don't have a problem with that, apparently.
Quite the contrary; I have an enormous problem with having my constitutional rights fucked with for one party's political gain. If you want my vote; earn it (Obama just did, remember?) DO NOT carve up my constitutional rights in an attempt to legislate an advantage for your party. Can you really not take off your party hat for a minute and consider how happy it would make you if Republicans legislated themselves a similar political advantage? That's dirty pool, Cyclo, even if my constitutional rights weren't involved in the usurpation.
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 Jan, 2010 06:02 pm
@OCCOM BILL,
Quote:
Well I think you begrudgingly admitted you could get just about any drug you wanted, in 24 hours, yes?


Uh, no. You mis-read me. While I might be able to talk to people about trying to get those things, they certainly aren't readily available. This is a fiction you have created, Bill.

Quote:
And if that doesn't drive the point home, try this question; were drugs harder to get when you were 17?
]

**** yes they were! But that's a question of my money and my connections, not the drug laws behind them.

This idea that modern drug laws don't make certain drugs hard to get is a joke. Unless you know the right people, many drugs are very hard to get. Perhaps the circle you run in is better hooked up then mine Laughing

Quote:
So you keep saying, but I don't think you're being realistic. Do let me know when you hear of any corporation donating a BILLION dollars to a campaign.


They can't donate it to a campaign - and wouldn't. Instead, they run their OWN campaign, supporting the positions they like with no restrictions. They can trash opposing candidates with lies all they want - no restrictions. And eventually they will. AHIP and the Chamber of commerce spent hundreds of millions of dollars fighting health care reform last year between the two of them, and it's not even an election year! How you can think that corporate cash will not continue to rise in influence is beyond me, the trend is clear.

Quote:
Quite the contrary; I have an enormous problem with having my constitutional rights fucked with for one party's political gain.


You're a private citizen, an actual person; nobody was ******* with your constitutional rights before this decision, Bill.

Quote:
If you want my vote; earn it (Obama just did, remember?) DO NOT carve up my constitutional rights in an attempt to legislate an advantage for your party.


Nobody did that at all. This is hyperbolic argumentation on your part.

Quote:
Can you really not take off your party hat for a minute and consider how happy it would make you if Republicans legislated themselves a similar political advantage? That's dirty pool, Cyclo, even if my constitutional rights weren't involved in the usurpation.


At least you admit in the last sentence the truth of the matter.

But, I never said that this won't benefit the Dems to some extent; it will benefit those who support big business, just like the Republicans.

Show me how this legislation will NOT lead to more money being spent in support of pro-corporate candidates and positions, and you might have a valid argument. All you have done is assert that it won't, or that it won't matter. I think you are dead wrong on both of those.

Cycloptichorn
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 Jan, 2010 07:09 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Cycloptichorn wrote:

Quote:
Well I think you begrudgingly admitted you could get just about any drug you wanted, in 24 hours, yes?


Uh, no. You mis-read me. While I might be able to talk to people about trying to get those things, they certainly aren't readily available. This is a fiction you have created, Bill.
Nonsense. You know a guy who knows a guy and you kn0w it. And EVERYONE knows a guy who knows a guy who knows a guy. And if some freakish hermit out there doesn't; how long do you suppose it would take him to locate a guy if he really wanted to know a guy? Many drug people can sniff each other out of a crowd from a block away. Further, I think the average kid looking will find drugs easier to acquire than alcohol. Marijuana provides a $35,000,000,000 dollar shadow market. I don’t buy the nonsense about it being a “gateway drug”, but it most certainly provides an onramp to the black-market superhighway of drugs.

Cycloptichorn wrote:

Show me how this legislation will NOT lead to more money being spent in support of pro-corporate candidates and positions, and you might have a valid argument. All you have done is assert that it won't, or that it won't matter. I think you are dead wrong on both of those.
I've asserted neither of those things, Cyclo. I just don't find your concerns more compelling than the Bill of Rights.
engineer
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 Jan, 2010 07:25 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
I heard Sandra O'Connor is saying that the real impact of this decision will be on state judge races where we've seen a huge increase in campaign spending in the last few election cycles and where an incumbent really can't use name recognition or even campaign on doing an excellent job because the population really doesn't see what they do. I guess if I really wanted to sway policy, that would be an easy and cheap way to do it. A recent SCOTUS decision showing direct corporate influence on the judical level:

Quote:
After a West Virginia jury found respondents, a coal company and its affiliates (hereinafter Massey), liable for fraudulent misrepresenta-tion, concealment, and tortious interference with existing contractual relations and awarded petitioners (hereinafter Caperton) $50 million in damages, West Virginia held its 2004 judicial elections. Knowing the State Supreme Court of Appeals would consider the appeal, Don Blankenship, Massey’s chairman and principal officer, supported Brent Benjamin rather than the incumbent justice seeking reelection.His $3 million in contributions exceeded the total amount spent by all other Benjamin supporters and by Benjamin’s own committee. Benjamin won by fewer than 50,000 votes. Before Massey filed its appeal, Caperton moved to disqualify now-Justice Benjamin under the Due Process Clause and the State’s Code of Judicial Conduct, based on the conflict caused by Blankenship’s campaign involvement. Justice Benjamin denied the motion, indicating that he found nothing showing bias for or against any litigant. The court then reversed the $50 million verdict. During the rehearing process, Justice Benjaminrefused twice more to recuse himself, and the court once again reversed the jury verdict. Four months later, Justice Benjamin filed a concurring opinion, defending the court’s opinion and his recusal decision.


Interestingly, in what looks like a very clear conflict of interest, the SCOTUS only came down 5-4 along typical lines.
 

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