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WHAT ROUGH BEAST? America sits of the edge

 
 
perception
 
  1  
Reply Mon 1 Dec, 2003 10:13 am
Then if would appear that general ethical behavior will improve only if society demands it.
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Ethel2
 
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Reply Mon 1 Dec, 2003 10:18 am
Timber wrote:
Quote:
Logic and Democrats comes to mind ....


Ah, Timber.......are you sure this isn't an expression of oedipal conflict on your part? Laughing
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perception
 
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Reply Mon 1 Dec, 2003 10:25 am
Ah yes the legendary king who fell in love with his mother, killed his father and provided jobs for an army of psychoanalysts.
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dyslexia
 
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Reply Mon 1 Dec, 2003 10:42 am
would it be that Elektra then has provided the grist for republican office holders?
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timberlandko
 
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Reply Mon 1 Dec, 2003 11:06 am
Glamor Gams wrote:
Ah, Timber.......are you sure this isn't an expression of oedipal conflict on your part?


I'm sure that's a factor. Laughing
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Ethel2
 
  1  
Reply Mon 1 Dec, 2003 11:40 am
Everything is true, the question is, what is it true about.

We're influenced......it's true. But I was just kidding........really I was......nothing to do with anything oedipal on my part, I'm sure, Dys. But now that I think about my joke......and we all know about jokes, don't we?........maybe I was thinking about how worked up we all get about these things. Questions and dilemmas we don't really know the answers about......and how unwilling sometimes we are to listen to each other.........how difficult it is to stop a minute and put on the hat (or pants, or shoes) of the other.

Maybe if we all tried to calm down a bit and tried a bit of reflection..........we would all have a better sense of purpose about these political discussions.

Or maybe not.........but I thought it was a funny joke.......just a cigar, I'm sure. Maybe I'm just looking for some work. eh, perc.......you're funny, really you are. Great joke of yours as well. Laughing That Oedipus.....causing us all so much trouble....or maybe Oedipus was just another human being like the rest of us and acting on instincts, as we all do. Or at least the person who wrote the story was.
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perception
 
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Reply Mon 1 Dec, 2003 11:48 am
Hell---what's a little incest as long as we keep it in the family Laughing Speaking of looking for work------have you tried advertising as "Rent a couch" or "Discount Freud"?

Get out there and "Think outside the box"
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perception
 
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Reply Mon 1 Dec, 2003 12:01 pm
Anyone here recognize the "Electra conflict" eh --Lola?
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Ethel2
 
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Reply Mon 1 Dec, 2003 12:26 pm
Me? Of course I'm motivated by the Oedipal (btw, Electra is passe now, no longer necessary to distinguish)........who isn't? And isn't it just the most fun?
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Ethel2
 
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Reply Mon 1 Dec, 2003 02:04 pm
Laughing...........

I just saw your affectionate name for me, Timber.............."Glamor Gams" It suits.................I think.
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perception
 
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Reply Mon 1 Dec, 2003 09:54 pm
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hobitbob
 
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Reply Mon 1 Dec, 2003 09:57 pm
SOURCE?
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blatham
 
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Reply Mon 1 Dec, 2003 10:23 pm
perc

I'm afraid I find the piece of little worth. The writer has a viewpoint, a set of ideas, evident from the first paragraph. It's not an analysis of anything, but just a partisan statement. It is certainly not compelling as argument to anyone who doesn't hold the same views.

And it isn't careful at all in thought. Take the first sentence...'liberals believe man is basically good'. Well, do conservatives belief man is basically bad? Are those the only two options?

The second sentence says that for liberals, 'terrorism can't exist' except as a consequence of other social factors. Well, what other alternatives are there? Arbitrary evilness implanted by space aliens?

I could go on, sentence by sentence, but I really don't think it's worth our time. This is shallow ideology pretending to be objective analysis.
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perception
 
  1  
Reply Mon 1 Dec, 2003 10:40 pm
Blatham

Fair enough----but are you sure you didn't miss the purpose of the article which in my view was to examine ideological reasons for left wing hatred for Bush which has completely polarized two vast segments of the American electorate.
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hobitbob
 
  1  
Reply Mon 1 Dec, 2003 10:54 pm
perception wrote:
Blatham

Fair enough----but are you sure you didn't miss the purpose of the article which in my view was to examine ideological reasons for left wing hatred for Bush which has completely polarized two vast segments of the American electorate.

Percy, this is where your lack of education fails you. You don't understand how to read and write criticallly. Surely some local community college offers courses under a "golden ID" program, or something similar. In Colorado people over 60 can take classes at state run schools for a big discount.

Before you get all huffy, this isn't an insult. I am sincerely trying to help you improve your debating skills. My dyspeptic senior citizen in Hist 1010 has improved his rhetorical skills greatly this term. Surely you can do the same.
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perception
 
  1  
Reply Mon 1 Dec, 2003 11:21 pm
Again fair enough----I can take criticism. Certainly my article was biased---that was evident from the start but you were incensed that I didn't quote a source. What difference did it make----it was all rhetorical. I could level the same charge at every article that you have posted. The ideology and the conclusion that you want me to accept are usually evident from the opening paragraph.

People who are well educated usually are more tolerant of opposing views as well as more courteous.
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Ethel2
 
  1  
Reply Mon 1 Dec, 2003 11:24 pm
Here you go.........another example of what Didion writes about:

the current (today's) edition of the Washington Update from the Family Research Council........it's especially horrifying today:

Quote:
December 1, 2003
UN on AIDS: 'Live and Let Live'


Today, December 1, is "World AIDS Day," yet too many health policy-makers, both in this country and internationally, remain unwilling to do what is really necessary to conquer this deadly epidemic.

Buried in your Thanksgiving Day newspaper was the latest report on HIV infections from the Centers for Disease Control. New infections among men who have sex with men climbed 17% between 1999 and 2002 - the largest jump of any exposure category. Men who have sex with men constituted 59.7% of the new HIV infections among males - more than ten times the percentage of the U.S. adult male population that has ever engaged in such behavior. Yet despite its deadly consequences and the fact that fighting AIDS has cost taxpayers billions, the U.S. Supreme Court says that criminalizing such behavior is unconstitutional, and the Massachusetts Supreme Court wants to reward it with society's ultimate affirmation - marriage.


Wow! Does anyone else find this to be an amazing statement? What do they expect the Supreme Court to do, interpret the Constitution based on ........what?.............whether it costs money or not?

Quote:
It is true that overseas heterosexual transmission plays a larger role in the epidemic. Yet even there, it is clear that behavioral change - abstaining from sex outside of marriage or from illegal drug use - is the key to stopping AIDS. Uganda is an excellent example of how abstinence education has helped stall the AIDS outbreak. But is that the focus of the U.N.-sponsored World AIDS Day activities? No. The U.N.'s theme is "eliminating stigma and discrimination," and the slogan is "Live and Let Live."


What do they do in Uganda to enforce this abstinence-from-sex-outside- of-marriage thing? Again I say, WOW.

Quote:
While it is true in one sense that "stigma" surrounding a disease can sometimes prevent people from seeking needed testing and treatment, re-stigmatizing the reckless and immoral behavior that spreads the disease in the first place is the key to prevention.


This is the sickest way of thinking I can image. The idea that stigmatizing behaviors does anything but cause harmful effects is amazing. As if the use of shame and guilt were helpful in controlling behavior without a price so high, it's liabilities exceeding what little, if any benefits, that it's net effect is destructive to any cause. WOW I know I shouldn't be surprised, but seeing it in print like this always shocks me.


Quote:
Senate Dems' Tactics on Bush Nominees Exposed


Last month a series of memos showing the coziness between liberal interest groups and Democrats on the Senate Judiciary Committee were "leaked" to the press.


You mean like the coziness between radical interest groups and the Republicans?

Quote:
However, whenever the mainstream press covers the memos they focus on chastising the Republicans for supposedly leaking the information and they ignore the downright nastiness of the Senate Democrats' strategy. These liberal organizations tell Democrats which judicial nominees to go after and vote down, how many hearings to hold, and ground rules for allowing floor votes. The memos even state that the groups persuaded Democrats to delay nominations in order to affect an affirmative action case in Michigan.

The memos go on to detail how to conduct personal attacks on Bush's judicial nominees, at one point writing "most of Bush's nominees are Nazis." In talking about Miguel Estrada, one memo identifies him as "especially dangerous" because "he is Latino." Another memo admonishes Democrats not to make the mistake they made with Clarence Thomas, in allowing Estrada to get on the Federal Courts at all.


My my my, this is shocking, isn't it? It's only fair when the "right" is right.

Quote:
Singling out a nominee because of his race is outrageous. While Senate Democrats may celebrate their victory in forcing Mr. Estrada to withdraw his nomination, their actions have tarnished both the U.S. Senate and the Constitution. The American public should not have to put up with these deplorable actions.


And this, I suspect, is a grossly inaccurate characterization of the meaning of the memo. But oh well, whose keeping track of what's fair anymore? Politics is politics...........good night! What is this world coming to?
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Mon 1 Dec, 2003 11:28 pm
perc

It was a sort of attempt to figure out why someone like me might find Bush's policies and statements and ideas highly disagreeable. But the writer hasn't reached outside of his own ideas to answer those questions. He waded into the piece with a notion about what 'liberals' think, and about what constitutes 'reality' (a spade is a spade) and he came out the other end even more certain that he was correct. That's easy to do if one is just talking to oneself.

This piece is, itself, a reflection of polarization. It forwards a number of really simple and cliched ideas about how the 'right' and 'left' are different, and how the one is right and the other wrong in pretty much all details.

You and I could have a valid disagreement regarding, say, how many troops ought to be in Iraq right now, or how much of a safety net there ought to be. But as soon as one of us says..."Well, of course you'd think that, you're a Bushite", then the discussion closes down quickly.

But I must catch you up on one element in your post there. You sort of claimed that the polarization we see is a consequence of Bush hatred. But in that article earlier that I linked, you'll recall that, at least as regards the Congress, a Republican interviewed attributed this to Gingrich's strategy. And earlier, we can look at the impeachment too. Or the 92 convention and the party platform.
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Mon 1 Dec, 2003 11:32 pm
perc

Hobit's request for a source wasn't intended as a rudeness, I think. It's something that gets hammered into students at the university level...clearly show source so that whatever is said can be verified.
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Ethel2
 
  1  
Reply Mon 1 Dec, 2003 11:51 pm
perc wrote:
Quote:
Almost all modern liberal thought begins with the bedrock assumption that humans are basically good.


Perc,

I agree to a certain degree with this.........my problem with it is it's too absolute. I would suggest that liberal thought posits that humans are basically trying to get what they want, and there's nothing wrong with that as long as we do so without abusing others..........obviously there's a lot of room for interpretation of what abuse of others involves, but in this sense, I believe humans are good.........if you consider sublimated sex and aggression to be good.

But human beings are complicated and to say that all liberal thinkers believe one singular, overly simplified notion is off the mark, I believe.

My complaint about Bush and this idealogy is that he believes his way is good and other's are bad, absolutely.....not because he's thought about it much, but because it seems easier and safer to believe that way. Bush just doesn't struggle enough with his ideas to make me feel comfortable. Concepts such as evil, evil-doers or good, good doers, when in the context of right and wrong.......when they're removed from the questions of functionality are attempts, IMO to make the threatening, uncertain world seem easier and safer than it can realistically be. When we try to make decisions about difficult problems.........we should be talking about what works and why, not what is right or wrong, good or bad. It's function, I tell you!

I think what makes most liberals uncomfortable with Bush is his apparent inability or unwillingness to struggle with the complexities of living........
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