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WHAT ROUGH BEAST? America sits of the edge

 
 
perception
 
  1  
Reply Sun 23 Nov, 2003 03:25 pm
blatham wrote:
Quote:
You and Blatham are relentless in your quest to make it something ignoble and evil


Perc

You do continue to gloss over what I do say about the positives (outweigh the negatives). When one reads of a tragic figure, it is the greatness in them, or the potential they possess, which makes their fall a tragedy. There was no more intelligent, imaginative, or brave man in all of Thebes than Oedipus. But he refused advice, for he could not perceive his own flaw.

Blatham wrote:
And on a personal note to you...let me say that I truly enjoy having you about, old friend, and greatly admire the carefulness and temperance of your posts these days.


Blatham wrote:
You do continue to gloss over what I do say about the positives (outweigh the negatives).


Laughing I've never noticed any "positives voiced" except in sarcasm :wink:

Blatham wrote:
And on a personal note to you...let me say that I truly enjoy having you about, old friend, and greatly admire the carefulness and temperance of your posts these days.


Laughing May I have your permission to post that about every "third minute or so" just so no one will miss it ----- coming from you I consider it extremely valuable.
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edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Sun 23 Nov, 2003 03:28 pm
Boy, hobitbob. All that slobbering and venom. Wait - let me reread your last post. Don't see any. Hmm.
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hobitbob
 
  1  
Reply Sun 23 Nov, 2003 03:30 pm
Remind me to put some in the next post. Wink
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Sun 23 Nov, 2003 03:43 pm
perc

by all means, permission granted...but I will note that you made my post somewhat anticlimactic with the post you slipped in just before it....
Quote:
I'm going to wait until everyone has had ample opportunity to view your hate slobbering, venom laden diatribe before I reply.
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dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Sun 23 Nov, 2003 04:05 pm
the fine art of temper tantrums run amok
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Tartarin
 
  1  
Reply Sun 23 Nov, 2003 04:14 pm
Perc -- the connection is the Brotherhood of Islam. Feel free to start a thread with the article: I find it interesting, but not gripping, at least not in the political context. I just like the people, the culture who live under the broad Muslim and Arab umbrellas.

As for "can do" -- even back when they were hauling their wagons across the Great Plains, they were (oh, thank you glorious Christianity) using and/or dispatching "savages" with glee. Their heirs haven't done much better (again thanks, glorious Christianity and the notion of man's dominion...), feeling the land is "ours to do with as we wish." Now, however, we are can-do-ing all of the world and then get irritated when the world is ungrateful.
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perception
 
  1  
Reply Sun 23 Nov, 2003 04:15 pm
Blatham

Trash is still trash no matter if it sometimes is interspersed with perverted banalities and childish analogies to historical events.
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perception
 
  1  
Reply Sun 23 Nov, 2003 04:32 pm
Tartarin wrote:
Now, however, we are can-do-ing all of the world and then get irritated when the world is ungrateful.


The extreme alternative to this "can-doing" all over the world is complete ******* isolationism. We could do with out jap cars, french perfume, german wine, etc., but could the world do without our money? I can just see that great vine gasping and withering up----matter of fact I would revel in watching it. Close the ports----and by all means nationalize all the foreign money that is here draining our economy----close the gates to immigrants.........................well you get my drift----is that what you want??????????
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perception
 
  1  
Reply Sun 23 Nov, 2003 04:45 pm
As a matter of fact that is such a great idea I think I'll call Bush and tell him ---God wants to talk with him.-----I think we should let the snakes propagate in the back yards of Germany and France in particular, for a few years and then wait for the begging to begin Cool Laughing Evil or Very Mad
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perception
 
  1  
Reply Sun 23 Nov, 2003 04:48 pm
Blatham

I know you'll be forced to retract all those nice words but what the hell-----it was worth it. :wink:
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georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Sun 23 Nov, 2003 05:04 pm
Blatham,

I hold your personality and ideas in the same high and low regard, respectively.

Well given that you support the Afghanistan intervention, do you really believe that the terrorist fervor agains us would be significantly less had we intervened in Afghanistan and not done so in Iraq? That seems to me to be quite implausible. The inflammatory contribution of our intervention in Afghanistan likely saturated whatever potential there was in that area.

The Islamist reaction is the product of centuries of abuse by Europe and relative backwardness on their part. It would exist if there was no Israel and if there was no United States. Similarly the Zionist movement that led to the creation of Israel by European Jewish emigrees was itself a product of a European persecution of its Jews, culminating in an organized attempt at genocide, abetted by the indifference of even the "innocent" European countries. I see no coherent response of any kind from the European powers that (1) created these problems, and (2) are our greatest critics today. Apart from distaste for the United States they offer no credible solutions to the problems facing the world. The core of their strategy is to tame the United States: other issues are secondary. Given that, there is no realistic way for us to accommodate them or even reason for us to try.

You suggest the policy of the Bush administration is making matters worse. Worse than what? Worse than they might have been had we done nothing? It appears to me that very good progress has been made in creating the right context for an eventual settlement of the Korean question. Though we continue to face difficulties, we will succeed in creating a better situation in Iraq and setting that country on the road towards modernism and secular, if not entirely democratic, rule. Saudi Arabia has been made to face the ugly murderous side of what it has long been funding in a foolish Faustian bargain with Islamists. Turkey will emerge with renewed commitment to secular rule. Time is on our side with respect to Iran as long as we blunt the forces of radical Islam among her neighbors. Only the Europeans are upset about the threat to their complacent self obsessed comfort. Our current disagreements with them were in the cards anyway, and their significance in the world is shrinking.
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perception
 
  1  
Reply Sun 23 Nov, 2003 06:05 pm
Damn---thats some good "stuff" George-----come on back Blatham..........................
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Sun 23 Nov, 2003 07:25 pm
Quote:
Well given that you support the Afghanistan intervention, do you really believe that the terrorist fervor agains us would be significantly less had we intervened in Afghanistan and not done so in Iraq? That seems to me to be quite implausible. The inflammatory contribution of our intervention in Afghanistan likely saturated whatever potential there was in that area.

George

It is absolutely certain that the Iraq project is what cost America the friendly regard of the west, and which set alarms ringing in so many citizens that we began to think of the US as perhaps the greatest danger to world peace. The change in opinions and sympathies that followed 9-11 and that which exist broadly now are attributable here.

The Muslim world is diverse and varied, not a unity. There's every reason to assume that opinion within those cultures would mirror opinion in Canada, or Britain, or Denmark. But because of pre-existing negative sentiment held within the Muslim world towards the US, and because Iraq was a second Muslim country to be attacked, with perhaps Syria and others to follow (and because of Bush's 'crusade' speech, along with other high level American Christian statements about this being, in effect, a holy war) it seems blind to assume the Muslim world would not be even more anxious and angry at US policy than were Canadians. Add on Al Jazeera and other broadcasters actually showing footage of blasted to bits Arab children (NOT consumable by the American networks, but real) and you have a receipe for recruitment - worldwide - which would not have come about had the US not proceded in Iraq as they did.

I don't at all buy your contention of 'saturation' after Afghanistan. Particularly if the US hadn't almost abandoned the bloody place! What if they had taken all this activity and money spent on Iraq and put it into really building Afghanistan? Into really improving the lives of the citizens there, at the seat of al Quaeda? The whole picture would be entirely different...friends where there are now enemies, eager intelligence sources rather than reluctant belligerants who want to throw off occupation.

You continue to excuse US actions on the argument that other nations are guilty too. It is as lousy an argument here as in a school yard. At least you should be consistent, and drop any claims of special American morality. But I actually don't think you should. I think you should demand very much more of your government and your nation.

Quote:
You suggest the policy of the Bush administration is making matters worse. Worse than what? Worse than they might have been had we done nothing?
Answered above.
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edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Sun 23 Nov, 2003 09:57 pm
Good stuff, blatham.
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perception
 
  1  
Reply Sun 23 Nov, 2003 10:02 pm
Blatham

Your signature caught me eye:

Treason never doth prosper. What's the reason?
Why, if it doth prosper, none dare call it treason.

Jane Fonda and Ted Kennedy can always find a few loonies to join in make it appear that it "doth prosper" Damn-it. Now there's a pair who should stand trial for treason.
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perception
 
  1  
Reply Sun 23 Nov, 2003 10:16 pm
edgarblythe wrote:
Good stuff, blatham.


I don't know Edgar, it appears to be a bit tired and frayed around the edges----you know like it's been used a tad too much.

I might have agreed with his point about Afghanistan had they not just published their constitution which makes that country an Islamic republic which outlaws any other religion and will keep women in slavery. It merely solidifies the hold on the countryside by the many warlords. There isn't enough money or goodwill in the world to buy off these greedy bastards.

Sorry Blatham old chum, but I think George won that round going away :wink:
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hobitbob
 
  1  
Reply Sun 23 Nov, 2003 10:25 pm
perception wrote:

I might have agreed with his point about Afghanistan had they not just published their constitution which makes that country an Islamic republic which outlaws any other religion and will keep women in slavery.

Well, actually, it doesn't. In fact, it makes specific provisions for the practice of other religions, and for women's rights.
The achievements and failings of the new constitution.
Quote:
From the CSM Article: Despite some of what it lacks, the Constitution represents several achievements for individual rights. It promises freedom of expression, the right to hold nonviolent demonstrations, and to form political parties - as long as they are not based on ethnic, religious, military, or regional lines. The latter provision, if enforced, will present a challenge for several Afghan warlords who are expected to try to morph their militias into legitimate political parties ahead of elections.



perception wrote:
It merely solidifies the hold on the countryside by the many warlords. There isn't enough money or goodwill in the world to buy off these greedy bastards.

The above quote from the CSM article disagrees with what you have posited.

perception wrote:
Sorry Blatham old chum, but I think George won that round going away :wink:

Gee percy, I didn't know Blatham was competing with anyone.
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perception
 
  1  
Reply Sun 23 Nov, 2003 10:46 pm
I will wait for the final version----I was under the impression that it was in "concrete". The Loya-Jirga meets Dec 10 and it is now available for public discussion. I don't have any idea how significant "public discussion" is but at least it is encouraging that some of the vagaries will at least be addressed and hopefully corrected.
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Sun 23 Nov, 2003 11:32 pm
perc

The couplet is from Julius Caesar (at least I'm pretty sure of that, if not, then from Anthony and Cleo). "Treason" is a tricky little idea, not least of all because it is defined by he who is in power.
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dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Sun 23 Nov, 2003 11:40 pm
"have a nice day" said Lady MacBeth
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