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WHAT ROUGH BEAST? America sits of the edge

 
 
Tartarin
 
  1  
Reply Sat 25 Oct, 2003 04:42 pm
Wow -- If I'd just taken today's paper out of the car... Thanks Blatham, but in Britain's eyes (and Europe, evidently) this was a big deal. Lawrence Altman is good, but it doesn't look like front page stuff in the Times. Will check

By the way, in the Times link, did you notice the ad and the little red bumps and the couple's problem -- adjoining the story?
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georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Sat 25 Oct, 2003 05:22 pm
Blatham,

Nursing a cold this weekend, and enjoying lots of sleep. Let me first restate my objections to the Dworkin piece so you will know I am not quite the heartless, ignorant Iconoclast you suggest.

Dworkin notes that the Administration has categorized its prisoners as belonging to two or perhaps three distinct classes (1) criminals (entitled to judicial process),(2) Prisoners of War (subject to the Geneva convention), and (3) Illegal Combatants (whose status may be ambiguous).

I believe the greatest number of the 600 or so are held in the second category, POWs. That we are engaged in a war is beyond doubt. Leaders of the enemy have declared it and have struck at us repeatedly and with deadly effect. They recruit, train their soldiers, and send them against us on several fronts. Some act in organized guerrilla groups taking military like action against us in Afghanistan and Iraq. Others act covertly as individuals and in cells in activities which, owing to their ruthless tactics and the potential of modern weapons can (and have already) brought us mass casualties. Problem is these leaders don't govern a country. Instead they draw their support from many countries with a more or less common culture. This fact limits the degree to which the Geneva convention offers useful remedies to the legalities of the situation.

Our people have a right and our government an obligation to protect us from the effects of these attacks and those who wage this war. The fact that settled international law does not yet address the arcane details of this new situation, does not in any way diminish the obligation of our government to protect itself and its citizens. Dworkin chose not to address this point. Not necessarily a problem except that in drawing his conclusion that our government has wrongfully put its security absolutely above the rights of our detainees, he has failed to address a point that is crucial to his conclusion.

There is precedent for this observation and, indeed the situation we now find ourselves in. It is in Northern Ireland in the British suppression of revolution and counter revolution at the hands of Orange and IRA terror squads and a retrograde, oppressive government then in the exclusive hands of the Orange side in this old struggle. The situation erupted in the late 1970s and as the terror on both sides escalated and the local government merely added to the problem, the British dismissed the government, assumed local power and began a long and costly war to end the violence and restore social order. They suspended judicial review and imprisoned thousands on both sides of this old struggle, some for as long as ten years - and without trial. It was indeed a war and the Army maintained such order as existed in many areas for a long time. There were numerous actions either (or both) morally wrong and illegal taken by all sides in this protracted struggle, but I believe few doubt the good intent and right action of the British government in resolving it with as little violence and as much legal restraint as this very difficult situation permitted.

It seems to me that a legal scholar in examining the situation at hand and mindful of origins of our own legal system in English common law, with its unique adaptive, pragmatic approach, should have at least considered the fact the situation had governing elements not addressed in the law and that precedent existed within our own legal tradition. I fault Dworkin for that omission.

Further, I find his conclusion that our government has wrongfully put its security [/B]absolutely above the legal and human rights of the detainees because it has failed to give them at any moment the most favorable rights of any possible legal interpretation of their status, wrong on three counts. (1)It is not wrong in view of the government's obligation to protect itself. (2) It is not absolute by any interpretation: no claim of unlimited power has been made. (3) Nothing in the law compels the government to give its enemy soldiers the most favorable possible interpretation of law in an ambiguous situation and to change that interpretation to suit the evolving interests of the prisoner.
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georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Sat 25 Oct, 2003 06:08 pm
blatham wrote:
george

Only you could read that wonderful essay and conclude that Hofstadter has everythin right except who is the subject.


That's not fair. I read the piece on your recommendation, and found it both thought provoking and lucid - as you predicted. I didn't (and don't now)argue at all with the subject he had particularly in mind.

Indeed he could have continued with an interesting conjecture on the historical connections among three of the standout 'paranoid stylist' movements (if that is the right word) of modern history; (1) the Protestant evangelical strain in American history, beginning in the colonies and continuing through today; (2) The Orange/Presbyterian tradition in Northern Ireland and the Stormont government it produced; (3) The Afrikaners (Boers) of South Africa, descendents of Dutch Calvinist settlers, the Nationalist Party that represented them and the Apartheid system it created.

All three of these cultures have common origins at the same time and place(s) in the early 17th century with a particularly rigid form of Calvinism, formed then in bitter conflict with both Catholicism and the then more established Protestant churches. Connecting links included James I, William of Orange, and the Glorious Revolution that brought him to power. Jan Smuts, Ian Paisley, and Jimmy Swaggart may be brothers under the skin.

This would have been an interesting, tho very controversial, twist on the subject, that I believe may have appealed to Hofstadter's eastern cosmopolitan audience. Wouldn't surprise me to learn he thought of it as well.

I believe the additional applications of Hofstadter's interesting model that I indicated are just as apt as these above and the one in particular you have in mind.
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Tartarin
 
  1  
Reply Sat 25 Oct, 2003 07:44 pm
Here are some facts from the people who are watching over our human rights, even George's. The writer is the USA director of HRW:

Quote:
US Courts Abandon Guantanamo Detainees
By Jamie Fellner

March 21, 2003

The United States may have succeeded in carving out a piece of the world devoid of courts - and the fundamental rights they protect. A federal appeals court ruled this month that U.S. courts have no jurisdiction over the claims of detainees held on the U.S. military base at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba because the base in on sovereign Cuban soil.

The decision confused legal fiction with reality. The mistake may prove costly not only to the Guantanamo detainees themselves, but to the rule of law worldwide.

It is true that Guantanamo is land leased from Cuba. But a wiser court ruling would have acknowledged that Guantanamo is territory wholly under U.S. control; for all practical purposes, Cuban sovereignty is non-existent. Certainly U.S. officials would never acknowledge the jurisdiction of Cuban courts to hear claims brought by Guantanamo detainees. If the appellate decision is left standing, no court will be able to scrutinize how the U.S. treats its Guantanamo detainees.

The world will nonetheless continue watching what the United States does with its prisoners. Under international law, U.S. officials are obliged to respect the rights of persons under their effective control wherever they are. International human rights treaties the United States has ratified do not permit it to violate rights simply because the violations occur in another country. The obligation to refrain from arbitrarily detaining people, for example, does not stop at national borders. Conditioning human rights on accidents of geography would render them meaningless.

Nevertheless, the United States seems to believe the detainees at Guantanamo do not have any rights. It claims the unfettered discretion to hold without charges any non-citizen it labels as an enemy combatant for as long as it chooses. Unless the Supreme Court reverses yesterday's unfortunate decision, no court will tell it otherwise.

Yet international law, including the Geneva conventions and international human rights treaties, provide clear benchmarks for determining whether and for how long the United States can hold the Guantanamo detainees. Any disinterested review of those laws suggests at least three categories of detainees at Guantanamo are now being held unlawfully.

The first group are Taliban soldiers. As long as the war between Afghanistan and the United States continued, the Geneva Conventions permitted the United States to hold as prisoners without charges members of the Taliban government's armed forces. With that war having ended last June with the assumption of power of the Hamid Karzai government, the laws of war no longer permit the continued detention of those soldiers unless they are being prosecuted for war crimes or other offenses. They should be released and repatriated.

The second group consists of civilians who unnamed U.S. intelligence officials cited in news reports claim were sent by mistake to Guantanamo. The laws of war permit the internment of civilians in a war only upon an individualized showing their detention is necessary for imperative reasons of security. If there are indeed civilians at Guantanamo who have no connection to the Taliban or Al Qaeda and who are not being prosecuted, they too must also be released.

Finally, at least some suspected Al Qaeda members may have been brought to Guantanamo who were apprehended far from the war in Afghanistan. Six, for example, were picked up in Bosnia-Herzegovina. The laws of war do not apply to persons who were not picked up on a battlefield and who have no direct connection to an armed conflict. International human rights laws do apply - and they do not permit indefinite detention without charges or access to counsel.

At risk at Guantanamo are not only the rights of individual detainees who are being detained unlawfully. If the United States is willing to toss aside the clear mandates of international law, it sends a green light to every other country to do the same.

President Bush has repeatedly said that the war against terrorism is a war of values, a struggle to protect human dignity, human rights and the rule of law. At Guantanamo, that war is being lost.
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Tartarin
 
  1  
Reply Sat 25 Oct, 2003 08:14 pm
Blatham: From tomorrow's Times:

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/10/26/politics/26RELI.html?hp=&pagewanted=print&position=
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pistoff
 
  1  
Reply Sat 25 Oct, 2003 08:23 pm
Loss of Respect
Quote:
President Bush has repeatedly said that the war against terrorism is a war of values, a struggle to protect human dignity, human rights and the rule of law. At Guantanamo, that war is being lost.


This is why Amerika is losing respect all over the planet: Double standards.

W and gang are hypocrites, thieves and criminals.
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Sat 25 Oct, 2003 08:25 pm
Tartarin

Yes, just saw that. Note that 40% of the votes Bush received were from white evangelicals. I didn't know it was that high.

Also the piece by Traub in the magazine, which I'll link over on the other thread where nimh and craven were getting all snippity with us.

George

Not sure if I can get back to you tonight, but will try.
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Tartarin
 
  1  
Reply Sat 25 Oct, 2003 08:28 pm
Yes, I was surprised by that 40% too.
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Tartarin
 
  1  
Reply Sat 25 Oct, 2003 08:34 pm
I'd like to add this Charles Russell link, germaine to the discussion, which you've probably already digested (and...?):

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/10/25/arts/25MURR.html?pagewanted=3
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Sat 25 Oct, 2003 08:40 pm
No, hadn't seen it. It is a very happy conclusion this fellow from the American Enterprise Institute reaches.
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Tartarin
 
  1  
Reply Sat 25 Oct, 2003 08:43 pm
Sorry -- should have taken the correct URL there! But hey, I'd skip to the conclusion anyway!!
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Sat 25 Oct, 2003 08:48 pm
lol....didn't intend to make a joke of that at all...I was just alluding to the big lack of surprise this fellow would find that conclusion in his data.
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Sat 25 Oct, 2003 09:17 pm
george said...
Quote:
The fact that settled international law does not yet address the arcane details of this new situation, does not in any way diminish the obligation of our government to protect itself and its citizens. Dworkin chose not to address this point. Not necessarily a problem except that in drawing his conclusion that our government has wrongfully put its security absolutely above the rights of our detainees, he has failed to address a point that is crucial to his conclusion.

Upon what might such laws rest, george?
Quote:
Among the most fundamental of all moral principles is the principle of shared humanity: that every human life has a distinct and equal inherent value. This principle is the indispensable premise of the idea of human rights, that is, the rights people have just in virtue of being human, and it is therefore an indispensable premise of an international moral order. Various international covenants like the Universal Declaration of Human Rights of the United Nations and the Geneva Conventions are statutory attempts to codify that basic moral principle into particular rules that can be made binding as a matter of domestic and international law. It may be a controversial question, as the Bush administration insists, whether its security measures violate the specific terms of any of the conventions to which the United States is a party.[13] But those measures do violate the basic principle of shared humanity that underlies them all...They violate that fundamental principle because they follow a strategy of putting American safety absolutely first, a strategy that recommends any measure that improves American security against terrorism even marginally or speculatively, or that improves the cost-efficiency or convenience of America's anti-terrorism campaign, without counting the harm or unfairness of that measure to its victims

As Dworkin points out, NEITHER established criminal law nor established international agreements/laws relating to prisoners of war allow for the sorts of treatment and conditions under which these individuals are being held.
Quote:
The Bush administration assumes that if neither of the traditional systems for dealing with crime and war fully fits America's campaign against terrorism, then anything goes: we can then pursue American safety first, without constraints. But that assumption is unwarranted and unprincipled. The fact that terrorism presents new challenges and dangers does not mean that the basic moral principles and human rights that the criminal law and the laws of war try to protect have been repealed or become moot.
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Sat 25 Oct, 2003 09:34 pm
george

You are one of perhaps three or four who have taken the time to read these pieces I've linked, and the Hofstadter essay as well. For this alone, I will sacrifice my firstborn male child upon your slightest whim (and get back to me fairly quickly, as he wants the car again tonight). And I must say I'm very pleased you find Hofstadter lucid and compelling...I dearly wish more historians wrote so well, and thought so well, as this fellow. And even moreso, I wish his works were on the curricula of every high school in the US.

And you do go some distance to recognizing the nuttiness that has seeped down through the Calvinist tradition. But you don't apply any of this to the present situation - that situation being, as we are arguing, the evangelical influence on both the modern Republican party and upon this administration and it's policies. Instead, you applied it to those who point in that direction!

It is not a phenomenon restricted to the 'right', but as he points out, that's the first place to go looking.
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georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Sat 25 Oct, 2003 09:46 pm
Tartarin,

I have noted your several references to the contempt you see emanating from the Bush administration, right wing commentators, and even myself (a warmhearted, nice guy if there ever was one). I'm not certain I fully grasp your point in this, and I'll confess I just don't see some of the details you have cited as factual.

In what way, for example, has the administration treated Colin Powell with contempt? It seems to me that notion is based on the unfounded assumption that there is an enduring and emotionally charged dispute among the principals in the Administration, particularly (the story goes) between Powell and Rumsfeld. This, of course, is a perennial Washington story, told in and of every administration, and only rarely founded on fact.

Permanent rivalries exist in competing organizations, particularly in government. It is all too common to see these rivalries fought out among the lower levels of the organizations sustained by the mutual illusion that the political appointees at the top share and have internalized the traditional rivalry. In fact any astute new leader would quickly recognize that to remain in control of his department he must, above all, avoid falling into these ruts.

Rumsfeld and Powell are far too astute and experienced in government to fall victim to this. Both know well there are numerous aspects of complex problems that must be worked in parallel, and that those who are not really inside will often interpret this as disagreement and a reemergence of institutional rivalry, while the chattering class of reporters will gladly write their stories, deliver their knowing insights, all in a predictable way.

You have referred to the media tactics of Rush Limbaugh, inferring that he is a uniquely bad source of the contempt in the air. I'll confess I have little use for any of the media figures we have all come to know over the last several decades -- Limbaugh included. Media news has degenerated into styilized entertainment and propoganda, whether that style is the cloying complacent liberalism of NPR or the BBC, or the bombastic conservatism of Rush Limbaugh. Both have adopted styles suited to their messages and audiences. The vulgarity of Limbaugh is a bit compensated for by his forthright discourse. In a reciprocal way the smooth reassuring delivery of NPR and BBC mask their more subtly packaged and occasionally deceitful messages. I wouldn't waste any energy defending either of them.

Tartarin wrote:

If I had to ask George one serious question, I'd ask him whether he considers himself thoughtful of others, and, if he does, how he could not want to apologize daily for the group he represents here -- apologize for their constant taunting, in the media, of people who disagree with them, of democratic procedures, of dissent of any kind.


This one got to me a bit. Yes,I do think of myself as thoughtful, both in the sense of being deliberate and of being considerate of others. Not always, mind you: I do sometimes get carried away. But in the end, yes. As to the second part of your question --Do YOU want ME to apologize and protect YOU from those who are taunting and dismissive of those who disagree with them?? It often appears to me that some of them are in more need of protection from you.
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Sat 25 Oct, 2003 09:58 pm
george

I believe she meant the popular voices from the right you speak of above, not here on a2k.

But I will not accept, nor come close to accepting, your parallel between NPR and BBC with the Coulters and Limbaughs. This really is an example of partisan defence (or perhaps just an odd assumption that all sides are always equal) on your part - we're bad, but you're just as bad.

Note the piece from the NY Times linked earlier...the technique pushed by Gingrich of always adding a perjorative adjective when talking about democrats of liberals. This technique was taken up with a vengeance by Coulter and Limbaugh (and Ted Olson's deceased wife, and many others) as a purposive rhetorical strategy. NOTHING like that occurs with the BBC or NPR...not even close. So please stop insisting on this sort of balance, it prevents you from observing clearly.
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Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Sat 25 Oct, 2003 10:36 pm
I was about to say that George's comparison of Rush to the BBC was a bit of a stretch. But with the rest of his post I agree whole heartedly.
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georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Sat 25 Oct, 2003 10:40 pm
Blatham,

Give him the car.

I found his article stimulating and I will read more of Hofstadter. I also have some material from Lola, involving the 'fundamentalist conspiracy' , to follow up on (must not disappoint her - I STILL HAVE MORE CIGARS). I will read "Anti intellectualism in American Life". If you have not read it you may like "Modern Times" by Paul Johnson - an excellent history of the 20th century. Now 20 years old but the moderately conservative outlook makes it timeless.

Saw your comments on Dworkin. Perhaps my disagreement boils down to the point that, while he believes current law fully embodies all the specific protections required for human rights and that entirely new situations can be addressed by the right application of existing processes, I do not. Further I believe the British/Northern Ireland precedent I cited amply demonstrates my point. He merely glossed over the government's problem in maintaining security while under a new deadly form of attack, and failed to acknowledge any possibility that it is attempting to preserve both humanity and security under difficult circumstances. This brought him far down in my estimation. Lincoln unilaterally suspended habeas corpus during the Civil War, but history properly credits him with with great concern for humanity.

I'll admit that I see more comedy than danger in the stuff of extreme Christian fundamentalists. Moreover I see religion, particularly Christianity under such universal attack as to fear more for for its continuance than its dominance. I am reading and I will consider this matter further - as I have indicated.

I am equally perplexed by the intensity of apparent liberal antipathy, indeed anger and hatred, for the Administration. It seems far out of proportion to both the Administration's statements and actions. What is its source? Is it rage at losing the White House? Tartarin suggests it is the contemptuous attitude of key figures in the Administration. I suspect it is more likely that is rage at a group that eschews all of the superficial cant and posturing of cosmopolitan liberalism, and yet remains self-confident and purposeful.
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Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Sat 25 Oct, 2003 10:53 pm
George,

I have never ever been partisan in my life. I have never voted and am really too young to have become emotionally involved in politics. <<-- (edit) Just realized that's not true. I have suffered one political loss in terms of emotional invenstment but it was the centrist Brazilian FHC versus the leftist Lula, even better illustrating my point.

While I don't hate the administration at all (I don't personalize politics much) I think the dislike of the administration is directly sourced in their actions. Not some abstract thing like arrogance, something very quantifiable in starting the war in Iraq.

I understand that someone who supports the war might not see it this way, but I consider it the worst action the Us has taken in my lifetime.

And to offer a basis for comparison I usually do not care about wars.

It surprises me that you'd wonder at the reasons for the distaste for this administration. The only thing I can think of is that you supported the war. But even so, do you not agree that this was not a conventionally sold war and that there were elements that are sure to anger some?

When Bush was elected I had no response, I was not a big fan of Gore. But his subsequent actions have made me no fan. For me, it's not a Dems vs. Reps issue. I am not a member of any political party. I dislike this administration because I think their actions are harmful.

I see that you consider these actions "purposeful", which is your right. But to assert that it's the purposefulness of the administration that engenders the animosity is an odd thing to say. I could care less how confident and purposeful they appear. i care that their actions are extreme and the extremity one with which I have a constitutional objection.
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Sat 25 Oct, 2003 11:13 pm
george

The extremism of the evangelicals would be comedic, if it were politically benign. Note please in Didion's piece on the 'Left Behind' books, that..." Even before Rayford Steele reaches home to find what he fears, that his devout wife and son are among the raptured and that he and his "skeptical" daughter (a Stanford student) have been left behind, we are already into monetary policy, the United Nations, "internationalism," "the new world order," the Realpolitik of the populist right." Note please that 40% of Bush's votes were from this constituency. No longer funny.

I do know that you perceive religion, particularly yours, under broad attack. But I do not, at least, not as you do. The religious impulse is surely to deep and too multi-faceted to be erased, perhaps in the same way that our tendency to be poetic or artistic could never be eradicated by dogma or by rule.

But I do subscribe to the enlightenment project of eradicating religion as The Authority, either moral or social, and certainly, as any sort of ontological authority. It is, in my view, but the stories and mythologies of a small nomadic tribe. What truths are contained in those stories are no better guide than the stories of other groups.

As to the strength of feelings towards this Administration, it is because it is moving in directions which we perceive to be in contradiction to cherished liberties and values...we think it extreme, and deeply dangerous. So does, of course, most of the rest of the world.

Your last sentence is merely foolish and deeply myopic. It could (read it again yourself) apply equally well to the facist regime of your choosing. Confidence tells us nothing george. But the inability to reflect and to change ideas tells us very much.
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