WHAT ROUGH BEAST? America sits of the edge

Hi Perc,

We've all just been a little bit busy for the last couple of days. I'm off to New York for the week end and have been all tied up here since Sunday.........I'll be back soon.

0 Replies

George: A wonderful review of a Yeats biography in the Times:

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/11/09/books/review/09FRAIZET.html

0 Replies

What Franklin believed would be the fate of the Constitution and democracy:

Quote:

Franklin urged the convention to accept the Constitution despite what he took to be its great faults, because it might, he said, provide good government in the short term. "There is no form of government but what may be a blessing to the people if well administered, and I believe farther that this is likely to be well administered for a course of years, and can only end in Despotism, as other forms have done before it, when the people shall become so corrupted as to need despotic Government, being incapable of any other."

From a Gore Vidal article, some months back, in The Nation.

0 Replies

well, so much for the vision of the founding fathers. I guess we'll have to think for ourselves on this one.

0 Replies

We'll have to get this party going again soon. Maybe by tomorrow or Friday......... I've missed you guys.

0 Replies

Evening, all. Sorry, have been visiting family.

Quote:

Blatham: "I don't think the state ought to 'control the economy'."

Just out of curiosity (not to divert from the ongoing discussion), do you believe the government (people) should have the power to limit corporate power?

Tart
We ought to do a separate thread, but quickly, you bet I do. And to limit monopolies, and to police false advertising, and to regulate human and business affairs which experience has shown are easily susceptible to the more sordid side of we humans. And I do not believe that anything like a just distribution of wealth will occur where there is no state mechanism for balancing and redistribution.

0 Replies

blatham wrote:

Evening, all. Sorry, have been visiting family.

Quote:
Blatham: "I don't think the state ought to 'control the economy'."

Just out of curiosity (not to divert from the ongoing discussion), do you believe the government (people) should have the power to limit corporate power?

Tart
We ought to do a separate thread, but quickly, you bet I do. And to limit monopolies, and to police false advertising, and to regulate human and business affairs which experience has shown are easily susceptible to the more sordid side of we humans. And I do not believe that anything like a just distribution of wealth will occur where there is no state mechanism for balancing and redistribution.

Let's see now----a State mechanism for balancing and redistribution of wealth???? Regulate human and business affairs?????? Laughing

Marx and Engels would be proud of you-----what happened to all that altruistic talk about freedoms? Just lip service for the stupid people--huh.

I was correct------religion is the only obstacle to you Socialists

0 Replies

Etc. etc. etc. My god, I can hardly see my monitor for the old cliches flying around like dusty moths...

Could we possibly avoid blanket statements and smiley faces and yadda yadda and get into the issue of balance of power in all its finer and more interesting details?

0 Replies

Tartarin wrote:

Etc. etc. etc. My god, I can hardly see my monitor for the old cliches flying around like dusty moths...

Could we possibly avoid blanket statements and smiley faces and yadda yadda and get into the issue of balance of power in all its finer and more interesting details?

Where would you like to start Tart?-----With the publishing of Marx's Manifesto in 1848,------with the Bolshevik Revolution in 1917 or just exactly where?

0 Replies

Perception -- I am so-o-o-o-o tired of the narrowing of the political spectrum in this country by those who continue to play either/or (my god, we need more political parties!). I'm not even going to respond to you about this stuff unless you show some ability to stop jumping up and down over "Marx and Engels" in a discussion about campaign finance, corporate power, etc. Perhaps a few days off would do you good, and a read or reread of Wilson's "To the Finland Station" might help. But no more either/or. Just not playing that game any more in a wonderful world which offers so many possibilities, so many choices, so many bright people with such a variety of ideas. You seem to want to smother the best and most diverse qualities of this country!

0 Replies

blatham wrote:

... And I do not believe that anything like a just distribution of wealth will occur where there is no state mechanism for balancing and redistribution.

Perhaps the trick is in determining just what is a "just distribution of wealth", and in identifying who or what will govern the "state mechanism for balancing and redistribution". The Soviet experiment with socialism yielded only more or less uniform poverty for all except the political elites, and a government apparatus with unbounded power, beyond the control of the people. The socialist expiriments in developing countries yielded only government corruption, low productivity, mismanaged resources, and poverty. I don't know of any good examples, except perhaps the Swedish model, and even they are having some difficulties with it.

0 Replies

Isn't it a bitch Tart-----That wall of soundproof stuff that seperates us-----but if you will go back and read Blatham's post , he is the one who narrowed this down to the very basics of the struggle between right and wrong, good or evil, freedom or tyranny.

State control over redistribution of wealth is tyranny.

State control over HUMAN and BUSINESS affairs is tyranny.

I'm merely pointing out who reduced/narrowed this discussion.

0 Replies

There's nothing narrow about Blatham or his arguments, Perc. You, however, often try to reduce whatever point of view to an either/or. Why not hold off for a bit and let those who are interested in exploring this more deeply get into the discussion?

0 Replies

Driving home just now I heard a do-not-miss interview -- for those interested in religion, the history of doubters, and in America and religion. Really fun and interesting. Interviewed author finds there is much less religious belief in America now than we have thought... and that doubt is essential both for scientific discovery and for the longevity of a religion. My speakers are out (puppy chewed through cable) but YOU can enjoy it when the audio is posted in a couple of hours.

Quote:

Confucius, St. Augustine, Galileo and Thomas Jefferson are just a few of the innovators who have left their mark on history by challenging conventional wisdom. Jennifer Michael Hecht's new book, Doubt: A History, traces the force of doubt in human history. We'll talk with Hecht. Try her "Scales of Doubt" quiz. The audio for this program will be available online after 6PM ET, 3PM PT, 11/13.

0 Replies

That's on NPR's "Talk of the Nation."

0 Replies

Yes --- by all means let's discuss a new model for Socialism. I'm certainly willing to listen to your arguments of why we should have "State" control over anything. I also really am interested in how you reconcile your views on protecting your freedoms from the evil religious right but yet you see merit in having a "State bureaucracy" have control over the redistribution of wealth and even more laughable "State control over Human and Business affairs". Why don't you take a "sebaticle" to China or Cuba where you can observe the "Model" in operation. Stay awhile---like a couple of years-----when you return you may have a different view of this disgusting country you are so quick to condemn.

I'm perfectly willing to listen to your arguments before you leave on your sebaticle-----you may persuade yourself that the trip isn't really necessary.

0 Replies

You keep your hands of my sebaticle, Perc. I may be old, but my sebaticle still has some life left.

Do you keep the sabbath?

0 Replies

Tartarin wrote:

You keep your hands of my sebaticle, Perc. I may be old, but my sebaticle still has some life left.

Well enjoy it while you can.

Tartarin wrote:

Do you keep the Sabbath?

Yeah under lock and key Cool

0 Replies

Speaking of NPR, it just got a gift of 200 million dollars from the widow of Roy Croc, founder of Mcdonalds. Time to cut off the 50 million federal dollars it gets annually.

0 Replies

Why do all of you right wing types hate NPR so much?

0 Replies

WHAT ROUGH BEAST? America sits of the edge

Related Topics

Quick Links

My Account

able2know