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WHAT ROUGH BEAST? America sits of the edge

 
 
Ethel2
 
  1  
Reply Fri 7 Nov, 2003 11:13 pm
Absolute truth is not the point. It's those who want to impose their beliefs on the rest of us through government.............that's the problem. Intolerance is one thing, but government imposition is quite another.
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Ethel2
 
  1  
Reply Fri 7 Nov, 2003 11:13 pm
ok george, you can be husband number three..........

fun fun
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Ethel2
 
  1  
Reply Fri 7 Nov, 2003 11:16 pm
Now, I have to take a day off from this board.........sobbing......but I'll return soon........I'm off to Denver for Saturday, returning Sunday.......and I think I'll leave this lap top here for once. See you all then............
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hobitbob
 
  1  
Reply Sat 8 Nov, 2003 12:56 am
George, the "radical Darwinists" are not likley to push legislation that states that their beliefs and only their beliefs are law. They are unlikley to push an agenda that says that only those who worship at the Bugess Shale will be allowed to hold office, or even hold citizenship! the fundies advocate these things and more!
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Tartarin
 
  1  
Reply Sat 8 Nov, 2003 08:56 am
Poor old Darwin -- he's being handed so much responsibility! Could we call this a dispute between knowledge and faith and agree that, though nothing is perfect, knowledge is a better way to organize a society?

I don't think the science people claim "absolute truth." I think the great thing about science is that it welcomes discovery, rediscovery, uncertainty, search, change with open arms. Isn't that what we want for our society?

Do we want the leadership of people who get their political and moral certainties from an imagined being rather than from human experience and searching? Wasn't it human experience and searching which finally overturned the faith that we could "morally" own other people?

George: "Were the aggressive Darwinists of a generation or so ago threats to liberty and democracy? I suspect some fundamentalists Christians would say they were, but I'll bet you would disagree." What is an aggressive Darwinist vs. a regular old Darwinist, as believers in evolution are called? And do you hold with the fundamentalist Christian belief (if such a belief exists) that evolutionsts were a threat to liberty and democracy? If you do, could you explain your reasons?
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Ethel2
 
  1  
Reply Sat 8 Nov, 2003 09:24 am
Quote:
If we were not able or did not desire to look in any new direction, if we did not have a doubt or recognize ignorance, we would not get any new ideas. There would be nothing worth checking, because we would know what is true. So what we call scientific knowledge today is a body of statements of varying degrees of certainty. Some of them are most unsure; some of them are nearly sure; but none is absolutely certain. Scientists are used to this. We know that it is consistent to be able to live and not know. Some people say, "How can you live without knowing?" I do not know what they mean. I always live without knowing. That is easy. How you get to know is what I want to know. The freedom to doubt is an important matter in the sciences and, I believe, in other fields. It was born of a struggle. It was a struggle to be permitted to doubt, to be unsure. And I do not want us to forget the importance of the struggle and, by default, to let the thing fall away. I feel a responsibility to proclaim the value of this freedom and to teach that doubt is not to be
feared, but that it is to be welcomed as the possibility of a new potential for hman beings. If you know that you are not sure, you have a chance to improve the situation. I want to demand this freedom for future generations.


--Richard Feynman, The Meaning Of It All, Addison Wesley, 1998.

george,

Tartarin is right about science and knowledge. The above quotation of Richard Feynman defines science. It's the best definition I've ever found. Must run to airport. Back tomorrow
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Sat 8 Nov, 2003 09:25 am
come on george...you keep falling back into this same pattern (x is over here, Y is over there, both are opinions, therefore both are equal) and it is making you obtuse to difference and to nuance. It's really like, at some point, you concluded that your own logical processes are not to be trusted, so you reach elsewhere to provide clarity or truth. Each argument I advance, no matter how coherent and careful...no matter the evidence we bring out, you fall back on this relativist strategy.
Quote:
Were the aggressive Darwinists of a generation or so ago threats to liberty and democracy? I suspect some fundamentalists Christians would say they were, but I'll bet you would disagree.
Who cares what some people might say, for gods sake! How many folks who conclude that natural selection is the nearly certain process of evolution also seek to proscribe your behavior in the bedroom, george?
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georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Sat 8 Nov, 2003 11:38 am
Lola,

First off, there is nothing in the statement by Richard Feymnan you quoted with which I disagree - nothing at all. He has offered an apt summary of the appropriate state of the scientific mind. When I contemplate (to the degree that I am able) the mysteries of the origin of the universe and of the mind bending intersection of General Relativity and quantum mechanics I share exactly that state of bewildered excitement and uncertainty. Out of it I emerge with the profound belief in the existence of a creator (the alternatives seem even more fantastic to me), but I do not presume I could prove that beyond doubt to either myself or to others - any more than you could prove the converse.

Tartarin & Blatham,

Did you fail to detect the irony in my reference to 'aggressive Darwinists"? I thought it a delicious twist indeed.

The fact is that a certain scientific (albeit not beyond question) description of the evolution of species has been put forward in our educational systems and been vigorously advocated by its supporters with exactly the same fervor and energy with which it was opposed by creationists. In my view they were both talking past each other, without recognizing the many areas in which the two views are compatable, and those where they differ. I see little difference in the rhetorical styles of the advocates on each side of this debate, and note the same lack of sophistication and imagination among them as well.

Tartarin suggests this is a dispute between knowledge and faith. That ignores the uncertainty readily acknowledged by real science, which does indeed welcome uncertainty and discovery. I believe the dogmatists on both sides of this issue have been equally ignorant and close minded.

hobitbob,
I believe that your condescending defense of Darwinists who would not stoop to enforcing their ideas on others, denying public office to those who do not agree, or who do not, "worship at the Burgess shale", is palpably contrary to the facts. You may wish to consult with Senator Schumer on this.
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perception
 
  1  
Reply Sat 8 Nov, 2003 12:02 pm
blatham wrote:
george

That is the good question.

I tried to make this point to another earlier, but it wasn't accepted.

'Democracy' is, if nothing else, inclusionary. If that is so, then one species of ideology becomes a threat to democracy itself - that species of ideology which excludes all but itself, which values only itself. Such a species of ideology is, prima facie, unique in a democracy.

The point is NOT that anyone believes in the resurrection or in an afterlife or that the bible is literally true. The point is that anyone, holding ANY belief set, becomes a threat to liberty and democracy when they ALSO hold that their believe set is the only possible TRUE belief set, and hense the only one upon which social arrangements ought to be founded.

You will, I'm sure, claim that 'liberalism' too holds that it is a superior ideology. But if you do argue that, then you are skimming past the most important element in this conversation....inclusion and exclusion.

A liberal, such as myself, seeks to limit only that which threatens liberty. There can be a church on every block, and I will not seek to close them. A parson can extoll any notion about biblical interpretation, and I won't ask him to shut up. People of any faith may pass on that faith to their children, and I won't insert myself into that family's dinner conversations. A fellow can retreat to a cave, and whip himself for ten hours a day, eating only ants and grubs, and I will not seek to have the police bring him into the sunlight.

As a liberal, I want whatever state institutions that exist to oversee all communitarian needs (highways, communications, schools, food production, etc) and to NOT involve themselves in the lives of individuals on the assumption that they have some superior knowledge as to what is good and bad for that individual (where others are not harmed, of course).

In this sense, liberalism means what Mill spoke of...freedom and liberty for the practical reasons of growth. But I also hold that such liberties of one's conscience and one's body and one's associations are rights intrisic to being a unique individual, a unique conscience entity.

Democracy is not threatened by freedom, it is threatened by the instantiation in social policy and laws of the beleifs of a single ideology which holds that is is the only valid social ideology.
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perception
 
  1  
Reply Sat 8 Nov, 2003 12:59 pm
Hey Lola:

You are guilty of extreme discrimination----I don't even get honorable mention in your list of "Hubbies"----I want restitution under the law----you will be hearing from my attorney----I wanted to say ACLU attorney but of course they wouldn't take my case. Laughing
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Tartarin
 
  1  
Reply Sat 8 Nov, 2003 01:59 pm
"Tartarin suggests this is a dispute between knowledge and faith. That ignores the uncertainty readily acknowledged by real science, which does indeed welcome uncertainty and discovery."

Whew! And after all this time, I thought you understood "discovery" (and "questioning") have always been a part of my rallying cry, and indeed how can one have knowledge without them, George? (...she wrote hastily before rushing to the dictionary to see if the 14th meaning of knowledge is "faith"!)
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Ethel2
 
  1  
Reply Sat 8 Nov, 2003 07:48 pm
Quoting from the current issue of Adbusters (compliments of my darling daughter)

Quote:
Some 15 to18 percent of the Americna electorate count themselve among the religious right, following the teachings of leaders like Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson. Their "pro-family" stance on domestic issues is well known and influential: limiting women in leadership, banning abortion and outlawing same-sex sexual relations. Their influence on foreign policy is less sensational, but arguably mor catastropic.
Adbusters, October, 2003

Quote:
James Zogby, president of the Arab American Institute in Washington, D.C., says the Christian Zionists share a similar worldlview with the neocons -- a world of absolutes, a confrontation of good and evil with no compromise, only endless confrontation or absolute victory. It's no stretch of the imagination to see the Bush administration as the populist incarnation of the same message, with it's "evil-doer" rhetoric and politics of perpetual war. Both the Bush neocons and the Christian Zionists also share suspicions about the global influence of the European Union and the United Nations -- though it's hard to accept that anyone in the White House, with the notable exception of the president, would beieve the religious right's claim that these two institutions are instruments of the anti-Christ.


and
Quote:
In March, Businessweek reported that even "European geopolitical strategists with long ties to the U.S. -- people who can't be dismissed as nut jobs -- are convinced that religious beliefs are the primary motivation for the Bush administration." What matters even more, however, is the variety of Bush's religious revelation. Consider this possibility: for the first time in history, the leader of the single global superpower believes we are living in The End Times.
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Sat 8 Nov, 2003 09:00 pm
Quote:
The fact is that a certain scientific (albeit not beyond question) description of the evolution of species has been put forward in our educational systems and been vigorously advocated by its supporters with exactly the same fervor and energy with which it was opposed by creationists.
george
This is a falsehood.

The notion of evolution arose in the world through an accumulation of observations, and explanations for what was observed, in precisely the same manner that we came to understand what functions the human heart fulfilled, or any number of other understandings about the working of the world. It arrived in text books and schools for the same reason.

That it bumped up against a theological notion was mere chance. Evolutionary theory has never been threatened by creationist theory, but the converse is very deeply so.

Had it not bumped into this theological notion, it would be as socially and educationally benign as ideas about the heart and blood flow.

Of all the notions you've got in your noggin, this is the nuttiest.
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perception
 
  1  
Reply Sat 8 Nov, 2003 10:06 pm
Blatham

Tap--Tap--Tap................
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Sat 8 Nov, 2003 10:59 pm
Perc...LOL...very funny indeed.

Ok, if you wanna.

The American Heritage gives at least two definitions (in the online version, this is the second) for 'ideology' - A set of doctrines or beliefs that form the basis of a political, economic, or other system. So, we might correctly say 'liberal ideology' or 'christian ideology', etc.

You said "Liberalism is primarily a socialist ideology". Actually, that's not so.
Quote:
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/liberalism/
I truly have no complaint with any religious notion or practice (with one caveat, which I suggested in the earlier post). I hold that any individual ought to be able to hold any idea at all, or involve themselves in any practice at all, without the threat of coercion from his neighbors or from the state (given no one else is negatively affected). I also hold this for any group of individuals.

"Fundamentalist' faiths are normally defined as such by themselves, believing that they are engaged in a version of their faith which is closer to some perceived original version. Like Luther, they hold the established church to be overburdened with ritual or malfeasance or some other set of failings accrued over time, and so they 'reinstitute' a simpler version - taking what they believe to be core fundamentals of the faith. The Taliban considers itself a fundamentalist version of Islam, for example.

Again, I have no problem with anyone who believes such a thing.

I've never defined myself as a socialist. I don't think the state ought to 'control the economy'.
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georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Sat 8 Nov, 2003 11:24 pm
Blatham,

Not really so nutty. Foolish people on both sides of the creation/evolutiuon issue presumed that either theory precluded the other, when in fact that is obviously not the case. I would fault anyone who advocates that either theory is alone a necessary and sufficient model for what exists.

That evolution, more or less as Darwin described it, has occurred over geologic time is beyond doubt. Whether or not it fully explains the origin and all of the diversity of known species is still an open question in science. Our growing understanding of the genome has raised some important questions at the intersection of biology and cosmology. Has there been enough time for all this progression to have occurred? Most assume without question that there has been enough. However the available mathematical models indicate the contrary is true. New things may yet emerge.
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hobitbob
 
  1  
Reply Sun 9 Nov, 2003 01:37 am
georgeob1 wrote:

That evolution, more or less as Darwin described it, has occurred over geologic time is beyond doubt. Whether or not it fully explains the origin and all of the diversity of known species is still an open question in science. Our growing understanding of the genome has raised some important questions at the intersection of biology and cosmology. Has there been enough time for all this progression to have occurred? Most assume without question that there has been enough. However the available mathematical models indicate the contrary is true. New things may yet emerge.

Hmmm... what an interesting comment, considering that life probably originated on earth four billion years ago. It would seem likely that life begins anywhere it has a chance to do so (See Ward and Brownlee). This, of course, makes those who claim the earth is only 5,000 years old uncomfortable, but they have their Tim LaHaye books to keep them amused and prevent their little heads from having to think. Rolling Eyes
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Sun 9 Nov, 2003 08:08 am
george

Yes, new things will turn up. There was an item I caught yesterday that set me on my bum. A camera that had been left on the moon was retrieved on a subsequent visit and was found to contain still surviving viruses.

As you know, certain elements of Christian faith hold to a liberal interpretation of genesis, so they are not happy with the evolutionary understanding. Other versions of the faith (or individuals within them) are content with evolution as a process but hold the process as being one of a creator's tools. This second notion is possibly defensible, the first is infantile and doesn't deserve discussion.

But the god thesis (that is, the judeo-christian notion of god who is not simply a prime mover, but a benevolent, all-knowing, all-powerful creator/coach/CEO, and the world a vale of soul-making) is a tenacious idea not because it is either logically or oberservationally compelling, but because it is psychologically compelling.

You hold your particular faith because of where you were born. Had you been born Inuit or !Kung, you'd think it more than mildly bizarre.

The Maori hold that there was a big fight in heaven and that's why the earth and sky split apart. You'd have believed that if you'd been raised there a few hundred years ago.

But the Maori, the Inuit, and everyone else will, given enough time and that odd urge we have to observe and theorize, would eventually understand how the heart functions. And how new generations vary from the parent stock.

Faith ideas and ideas which arise from study of the world are epistemologically different. Not the same. Not equal. The term 'knowledge' can be applied to one (tempered, yes, with the adjective 'provisional') but not to the other.
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Tartarin
 
  1  
Reply Sun 9 Nov, 2003 08:43 am
Blatham: "I don't think the state ought to 'control the economy'."

Just out of curiosity (not to divert from the ongoing discussion), do you believe the government (people) should have the power to limit corporate power?
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perception
 
  1  
Reply Sun 9 Nov, 2003 08:54 am
Blatham

As you generally do(except when grumpy) you have provided us with an excellent example of your intellectual depth. I'm playing grandpa today so this is just a quicky for now.

I thought it interesting that the tone of your response was entirely different from the strident tone of your indictment which tried to demonize fundamentalist christianity as the one and only real threat to democracy. ( I deplore your apparent inability to recognize the foreign grown variety of Wahhabism and other such forms of militant fundamentalist Islam as just as much or more of a threat than fundamentalist christianity)

This is just an aside----it is obvious from reading your latest posts that the only God you worship is the god of intellectualism which I hasten to add is not bad but it tends to create a situation where it is difficult for you to see the forest because there too many trees obscuring your view.

-------can't continue ----- Grandma says---enough.
Later.
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