george wrote:
Quote:France and Germany, long before 9/11, were embarked on a policy of leading the development of an independent (of the U.S.) international policy for the EU and distancing it from the United States.
George,
I agree with what you've said above. I also agree that they have been doing this out of their own self interest (I agree with you that this is the motivating factor in everything a person or a nation does). I also see it as a positive sign of strength because, when less dependent on the U.S., the EU will have a strong sense of unity and potential power. This will make them better allies, which is good for them and good for us. But it will also make them a more formidable enemy. It's up to us to decide which we want them to be.
I agree with Blatham here, you seem to be saying since everyone is out for themselves, then anything goes. But I would like to point out that
some methods of getting what you want, and some evaluations of what is in best self interest,
are better than others. It's a matter of function. What works best given what we need. This is the evaluation that we have to be making. Are the tactics of the Bush administration destructive to the self interest of our nation? Are they destructive to the world community? I believe they are. It's not the fact that they want to achieve a position of power that's the problem. This is the way individuals and nations work. It's that they are going at it in a destructive way and will by doing so, eliminate what they seek. Power as a nation. And they will do a devastating amount of harm in the process.
Tartarin wrote:
Quote:It's the main beef I have with Christianity -- the arrogance of our-god-is-better-'n'-your god.
And george replied:
Quote:Based on the known facts of history (both recent and long past) your beef with Christianity could as easily have been directed at any religion or at any of the major political/economic theories (fascism, Communism) that have been put forward as the "true" models for mankind. With that in mind, I don't think your observation means very much. (Here I include as well the modern secular/environmental all-species-are-equal quasi-religion that often dominates today's discourse.)
George,
I agree with this statement of yours as well, or at least it is true of any
fanatical religion or living style. My point is that it's the fanatical evangelical fundamentalist Christians who are gradually taking over our government. And they've already come a long way in their endeavor. There are non fanatical members and divisions of all belief systems, just as there are those who are fanatics. It is these people we all have to fear, whether Christian or Islamic or Unitarian, for that matter. But it's the fanatical Christians over here and the fanatical Muslims over there who are at this time fighting for control and in large part are presently successful. It's this that is the extreme danger. With two fanatical sides, the outcome will be disastrous. We're on our way with George Bush. If you want a republican in office, why doesn't your party work to get rid of the fanatics? You are denying the danger here. If you want to continue to deny it with a clear conscious, why don't you do as VNN did and as I will now do as well. Subscribe to a few of the fanatical evangelical's sites. See what you find there. We could easily compare their rhetoric with that of the fundamentalist Muslims. IMO, their doctrines are identical in this respect, "identify and defeat the infidel because we know best how everyone should live and we'll coerce others into submission to our convictions." In the meantime, our only hope of preserving sanity in the next several decades is to elect anyone but George Bush.
And again, about your concern about the secularists. I think you believe they are trying to eliminate your religion and teach your children and/or grandchildren their "religion" or method of thought. At least, this is what I believe your concern to be. So if we're to have Christian principles taught in our schools, will there be equal time provided for secular principles? How about Islamic principles? Will they get a fair chance to be taught? The world is now much more one complete system than it once was. For all the familiar reasons, what we do here influences what they do there and the other way around. Is it realistic or fair to maintain that the Christian values many of our citizens depend on are the only values that matter? If we do that, we will lose that which we want the most. Religious freedom. Or I take it that you want religious freedom. I know the fundamentalists of all religions do not.