Parents and Santa

@dadpad,

Remember when we used to eat the traditional English Christmas stuff?

All that hot, heavy food?

Oh dearie dearie me!

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@Robert Gentel,

This again is ignoring the possibility of a third category though -- not true, not false, but fantasy.

My kid is quite the skeptic in general -- you should hear her dissect tempting commercials.

However, she loves Christmas.

As a bit of a test (and also because I had no other good options, forgot to buy new "special" paper this year) I used the same wrapping paper that she referred to as an indication that there isn't REALLY a Santa as the wrapping paper for Santa's present again this year -- not a peep from her. ("Oh, there's Santa's present, I didn't see it before.") And she participated even! We put out fruit, eggnog and cookies at bedtime -- strawberries and cookies were nibbled but the banana was left alone. In the morning, before everything commenced, she ate the banana and said Santa did. Also, her thank-you's betrayed that she knows it's us and not Santa.

I was completely neutral this year about Santa, just followed her cues. Oh, you want to put out cookies? OK. Etc. She was entirely the engine this year.

Anyway, I do think that at some point if you go to great pains to "prove" to a skeptical child that Santa exists it'll be disillusioning for that child to find out that in fact he doesn't. But I think there's a lot more room for play than in your scenario. Especially, I disagree with the notion that engaging in Santa rituals and play means a "discouragement of skepticism in a culture," in general. I think it can be done that way but isn't necessarily that way.

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Quote:

The Physics of Santa (broadcast Friday, December 25th, 2009)
How does Santa make it to all those houses in just one night, unobserved? Physics! Advanced surveillance technology, light-bending metamaterials, and wormholes in the fabric of space-time may all play a role. Join Ira in this segment of Science Friday for a conversation with author Gregory Mone, author of a new book on the science of Santa.

Guests
Gregory Mone
Freelance Writer
Author, "The Truth About Santa: Wormholes, Robots, and What Really Happens on Christmas Eve," (Bloomsbury USA, 2009)
Boston, Massachusetts

http://www.sciencefriday.com/program/archives/200912252

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@sozobe,

sozobe wrote:

This again is ignoring the possibility of a third category though -- not true, not false, but fantasy.

How is it ignoring it? I saw the comment you made to that effect, but I don't see how it has any bearing on my criticism of the Santa myth.

I mean, I would hope your kid doesn't completely believe it. I have a very hard time imagining the kind of naïveté (or the length to which the charade would have to go) that it would take to really believe in it as reality at that age.

But the Santa myth starts a lot earlier than that, and traditionally does involve a lot more actual belief in the myth.

Quote:

But I think there's a lot more room for play than in your scenario.

I think there is a lot of room for play. I've made people believe things that weren't true in my life, I had fun. Sometimes they did too.

Quote:

Especially, I disagree with the notion that engaging in Santa rituals and play means a "discouragement of skepticism in a culture," in general. I think it can be done that way but isn't necessarily that way.

I'm sure it's not necessarily that way, which is why I don't think I claimed as much. But I do think that as a cultural ritual it is typically that way and that it at least increases the cultural acceptance of myths and thusly discourages skepticism on a cultural, if not individual, level.

And don't see as much redeeming value as you do if the kids are becoming halfway skeptical about the whole thing at advanced age. If kids typically aren't figuring it out by the age of five it's worse than even I thought.

1 Reply

@Robert Gentel,

Robert Gentel wrote:

sozobe wrote:
This again is ignoring the possibility of a third category though -- not true, not false, but fantasy.

How is it ignoring it? I saw the comment you made to that effect, but I don't see how it has any bearing on my criticism of the Santa myth.

Less about your criticism of the myth than your apparent criticism of going ahead and pretending about the myth. You seem to be saying that pretending is inherently problematic -- I don't think so.

Especially:

Quote:

I think there is a lot of room for play. I've made people believe things that weren't true in my life, I had fun. Sometimes they did too.

There is a directionality here that I don't think is true of fantasy play with kids. Did sozlet "make" me believe that there were orangutans in our back yard, and I was duped when I said "oh really?" instead of "oh, cool!"?

Quote:

But I do think that as a cultural ritual it is typically that way and that it at least increases the cultural acceptance of myths and thusly discourages skepticism on a cultural, if not individual, level.

I disagree. I think that's a jump. Kids pretend all the time -- it's a big part of being a kid and is productive and helpful. Letting kids pretend does not mean they'll grow up into un-skeptical adults.

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If kids typically aren't figuring it out by the age of five it's worse than even I thought.

Again -- it can be in a third category that is purposeful pretend play and not "true/false." That's what I think you're missing -- that for kids, not everything is so binary (and that's developmentally appropriate).

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@sozobe,

Terrible terrible news everyone!
Here's some relevant breaking news ....
http://tinyurl.com/yf9wvqo

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@tsarstepan,

Shoot the messenger!!! Shoot the messenger!!!!

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@sozobe,

sozobe wrote:

Less about your criticism of the myth than your apparent criticism of going ahead and pretending about the myth. You seem to be saying that pretending is inherently problematic -- I don't think so.

I don't think pretending is inherently problematic, but I also don't think that this cultural myth only includes pretending. I certainly imagine a lot of it going on, especially at the older ages though.

Quote:

There is a directionality here that I don't think is true of fantasy play with kids. Did sozlet "make" me believe that there were orangutans in our back yard, and I was duped when I said "oh really?" instead of "oh, cool!"?

I agree that the directions weren't the same. The example was intended to show that I could both appreciate the fun in pulling someone's leg as well as the fact that I was at times guilty of it when it wasn't always as nice. I don't have kids and examples of my own won't have the same direction, but the point was to try to sound less preachy because what I am criticizing isn't something I'm so opposed to that I've never consider doing. Like I've said, my qualm with cultural myths is slight and my example sought to emphasize this.

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Quote:
But I do think that as a cultural ritual it is typically that way and that it at least increases the cultural acceptance of myths and thusly discourages skepticism on a cultural, if not individual, level.

I disagree. I think that's a jump. Kids pretend all the time -- it's a big part of being a kid and is productive and helpful. Letting kids pretend does not mean they'll grow up into un-skeptical adults.

I was saying that I didn't think it was typically pretending. I really don't know the breakdown, but my suspicion is that it goes something like this: at an early age nearly all actually believe the myth, and very few are pretending, and as children age they progress to a stage where most are pretending and few actually believe.

So I'm not saying that letting kids pretend is the culprit. And I'm not even saying that belief in a cultural myth means they won't be a skeptical adult. But I do think that the acceptance of one cultural myth has a cultural influence in regard to the acceptance of other cultural myths and less overall skepticism as a culture.

Quote:

Again -- it can be in a third category that is purposeful pretend play and not "true/false." That's what I think you're missing -- that for kids, not everything is so binary (and that's developmentally appropriate).

Other than agreeing with the last conclusion in your argument I don't know how I miss it personally. I know that lots must be pretending, hoping against hope that it is real, milking it for presents (they know how to play with parents too) and all that.

But unless there isn't wide-scale belief in this myth as well, I don't see how it invalidates my concerns. For example, similarly I know there are a lot of people who pretend to believe in a religion but their existence doesn't really make me feel less concerned about the effect on society of those who do.

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@Robert Gentel,

Quote:

And I'm not even saying that belief in a cultural myth means they won't be a skeptical adult. But I do think that the acceptance of one cultural myth has a cultural influence in regard to the acceptance of other cultural myths and less overall skepticism as a culture.

Or, one could equally argue that it logically trends towards increased scepticism about cultural myths....in that ALL kids end up knowing that it was just pretend.

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@dlowan,

dlowan wrote:

Or, one could equally argue that it logically trends towards increased scepticism about cultural myths....in that ALL kids end up knowing that it was just pretend.

Yeah, I've considered that more than once but have mixed feelings about how often it's instructional.

1 Reply

@Robert Gentel,

Robert Gentel wrote:

dlowan wrote:
Or, one could equally argue that it logically trends towards increased scepticism about cultural myths....in that ALL kids end up knowing that it was just pretend.

Yeah, I've considered that more than once but have mixed feelings about how often it's instructional.

Sure....I don't have any evidence either way....but I don't at all think you can assume it goes the way of increasing credulity.

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Santa,fairies. trolls, fairy tails, The brothers Grimm, H.C Andersen, Harry Potter, The Greek gods, The roman Goods, the Nordic Goods, every story helps us to develope fantasy.
Without fanatasy life is more boaring, there would not be any thrilling books, only books with facts. There would be no "made up games" to play. There would be no artists maybe not even music and lyrics without fantasy.
Handicraft, knitting or embrodiery comes out of fantasy.
You need fantasy to creat a good tool or a new practical item for daily use.
I am all for Santa and fantasy. There is nothing to worry about.

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@Robert Gentel,

Robert Gentel wrote:

For example, similarly I know there are a lot of people who pretend to believe in a religion but their existence doesn't really make me feel less concerned about the effect on society of those who do.

there's the worrying bit for me. Each time I don't say something to a believer, of whatever variety, I wonder if it would be better to debate the point.

Is it as bad not to encourage as to discourage?

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@sozobe,

Funny we had a similar experience this year with my 11 year old. Although up until a couple of days before Christmas she did not believe in Santa, suddenly she believed again. She looked at the internet to see where Santa was on his flight - she insisted on leaving out cookies and milk for Santa and talked about him as if she believed 100% in him again. We did not encourage or discourage. I think she loves the magic that surrounds the belief in Santa. It was beautiful and wonderful to watch and listen.

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hmmm...
I hate to be a party pooper, but I never believed in Santa Claus

The whole idea just seemed so ridiculous.

Unfortunately, every adult assumed I believed. I learned my lesson quickly to keep my mouth shut, when someone said something to me about Santa, and I told him/her there was no such thing. I got the "I feel sorry for you" spiel.
Since I was a little kid, I didn't know how to deal with someone with someone, an adult, telling me they felt sorry for me, so I just tried to avoid the whole thing. Any time there was a Santa somewhere, or it was an occassion where I would have to at least not come out and say how stupid all this was, my stomach would get all tight.

I think my 2 main feelings were wondering how dumb did grownups think I was, and wishing I could pretend to believe, by seeming to be all excited by the whole thing. I just couldn't imagine losing my dignity (yes, I think little kids have a type of dignity that should be respected) in that way.

It seemed it was important for others to believe that I believed.

Tooth Fairy? Nope. I thought it was a pleasant idea, but I knew it wasn't real.

Easter Bunny? Well, I wondered about that, because one year my mother called me over to the window and pointed out a rabbit that was sitting in the field across from our house.
I actually saw it, so for that one year, I figured the EB was real. By the next year, I knew it was just a rabbit.

That letter to Virginia business, I hated that letter. That gave me the same "I feel sorry for you because you don't believe" feeling.

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@chai2,

I can't remember ever believing in Santa Claus either, but I think that's because I had two older siblings, one of whom- my older brother -made it his mission to disabuse me of any childish notions I might stupidly hold.

I can remember opening the heating vent and listening to my parents wrap presents in the den downstairs and I knew exactly where the presents were hidden in the back of their closet.

My friend told me her mother was the tooth fairy when I was five and she was teaching me how to ride a bike. I later told my brother that I knew the truth about the tooth fairy - it was Mrs. Rosenfeld. Somehow the thought of a flesh and blood person going into all those houses made more sense to me than some fairy who could pass through walls. I've always been sort of practical and literal - I remember asking my friend how her mother got the keys to everyone's houses.

I never bought the Easter bunny - I mean, we dyed the eggs and I saw the candy my mom bought. When my kids were little - we had an easter baby - one of my daughter's dolls with a basket of candy on her arm. We had many many laughs about the Easter baby.

My kids were the same as me - we had a wood stove insert and my son at about the age of four said, 'Santa can't come down chimneys - he'd get BURNED!!'

I just laughed and said - 'Yeah - that's right...'

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@aidan,

I can't remember exactly how I found out my parents were the Santa Claus perpetrators. I do remember being 5 or 6. Perhaps my first Christmas after my parents got divorced, while at my father's house, my two sisters must have sensed that I didn't believe that in the Santa Clause lie. They just told me to play along with the whole charade and pretend that most of the gifts I got that year must have been from Santa Clause. In order to appease my father's belief that we his children still believed in Santa Clause.

Up until I graduated from High School, half of my presents from my father were always signed "from Santa." So the whole thing was a pleasant folly at least.

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@aidan,

Apparantely you just can't handle the truth (err tooth)

http://media.daemonsmovies.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/Tooth-Fairy-Poster-3-310x500.jpg

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@Linkat,

Dear Lord save me from this horrible disutopian mess of a craptastic film!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DIR5bcpr-X8

It's not even a Disney craptastic film at that!

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@tsarstepan,

Yeah, a pleasant folly is a good way to put it. Neither of my parents were invested in the whole Santa/Easter bunny thing, so we didn't even have to pretend to believe it. Let's just say their reasons for celebrating were directed in other directions.

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