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Fascism vs. Capitalism vs. Socialism: The Smackdown

 
 
Reply Thu 3 Dec, 2009 08:47 pm
OmSigDavid asked me a question on this thread about North Korea,
http://able2know.org/topic/138840-1
but to me his question is actually a separate topic, so I'm moving his question and expanding the discussion to it's own little space here. Believe or not - it has nothing to do with guns (yet).

OmSigDAVID wrote:
Quote:
In your mind, what is the distinction between communist and fascist ?


I tend to view communism the way Marx did - over throw the powers that be and everyone gets a piece of pie. Fascists/Totalitarians love to dangle the promise of communism as an excuse to hold onto power by saying they are working on giving everyone an equal share, just don't expect it to happen in their lifetime. I always thought Marx needed to have dinner with Freud because Marx did not understand the human ego. People are not interested in being the same and having the same as everyone else. People want to be appreciated and rewarded for their individual efforts, it motivates us as a species. We will never have a truly communist nation as Marx envisioned- it goes against our nature, but I also think it's too bad his philosophy was corrupted by a bunch of dictators to justify their evil empires.

I actually see fascism as being more similar to capitalism. In both systems you have a few controlling the masses and the masses are under the illusion that it is for their own good. In fascism it tends to be one big shark, in capitalism it's a school of sharks. As capitalists, Americans have their lives dictated to them by corporations who control the government through lobbyists. If Americans think they are free they are kidding themselves. We are controlled by Nanny Corporations who decide how much health care we receive, what kind of retirement we can plan for, what food we eat, what chemicals will be in our water, what wars we will fight, etc. Americans are trapped in jobs because they depend on the benefits they cannot afford as individuals. Americans are told what to do and how to do it through Madison Ave style marketing. It's not so different from fascist rule and propaganda. It's still a form of mind control and controlling the masses through need. Capitalism works best for the selfish and the greedy, as does fascism.

I think the most free people are those who practice a mix of socialism and free enterprise. Denmark is a good example of this. You can still open a business and own property as an individual, but the society recognizes that people have certain basic needs and it is in the interest of the society for all to chip in and make sure those needs are met. As an American who owns property and a business, I know I could lose it all tomorrow if I become ill and cannot pay my medical bills. This is not a problem for a business owner in Denmark. The people of Denmark know it is to their advantage to make sure a person who needs help gets it, which can return them back to being a productive citizen who can again contribute to the system. In American style capitalism it's everyone for themselves. As an American you can't expect help until you are so far down the hole someone may or may not be able to reach you. Americans have to do a lot of begging to get the help they need. I know, I just came back from a fund raiser for an eight year old girl with leukemia. Her middle class parents are underinsured and will probably lose everything to pay for her treatment. We all put money in a little pink box that will go to pay her medical bills that her insurance company refuses to cover. I'm sure there are people who would like to beg in North Korea, but know they would be shot if they tried, so capitalism is probably better for beggars than fascism. I don't remember seeing any begging in Denmark.

I think China is the worst of all systems - anything goes capitalism under a totalitarian government. I think America has been plunging into this trap, but in reverse- a corrupt, weak government that espouses capitalism and is controlled by corporate fascists. I think it's ironic that American's are paying taxes to prop up their Nanny Corporations because they are too stupid to invest the money directly into their own security. We don't want GM to fail because we think of the all the people who will lose their healthcare and pensions. Capitalist TeaBaggers hold signs saying "Keep Your Gov't Hands off My Medicare". I'm not optimistic we will pull out of our 30 year nose dive into fascist capitalism.

I'm sure this more than you wanted, David, but I got on my soapbox and decided to hang on for a time. I hope I was somewhat coherent and answered your question. I probably haven't written anything this long and tedious since college.

Anyone else like to share?
 
panzade
 
  1  
Reply Thu 3 Dec, 2009 09:33 pm
@Green Witch,
I thought it was a benchmark question too. I'm looking forward to some discussion.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  2  
Reply Thu 3 Dec, 2009 10:05 pm
okie is an expert on fascism, socialism, Marxism, and Capitalism. Somebody needs to contact him, because he has me on Ignore.
0 Replies
 
Diest TKO
 
  2  
Reply Fri 4 Dec, 2009 02:33 am
@Green Witch,
I think the truth will always be that no pure ideology ever really exists and that we find functionality in a collage of these concepts.

T
K
O
0 Replies
 
saab
 
  2  
Reply Fri 4 Dec, 2009 03:47 am
All fascist movements advocate the creation of an authoritarian government that is an autocratic single-party state led by a charismatic leader with the powers of a dictator. Many fascist movements support the creation of a totalitarian state.
I don´t see how USA can fit into this category.

You mentinoned Denmark as a country mixing socialism and free enterprice.
Denmark is not the only country like this. Most of the western EU countries also Norway and Switzerland are like that. We would never call ourselves socialist, but social democrates.
Modern social democracy has deviated from socialism, and supports the idea of a mixed economy. Social democrats aim to reform capitalism democratically through state regulation and the creation of programs that work to counteract or remove the social injustice and inefficiencies they see as inherent in capitalism. A product of this effort has been the modern democratic welfare state. This approach significantly differs from traditional socialism, which aims to replace the capitalist system entirely with a new economic system characterized by either state or direct worker ownership of the means of production.

Social democratic countries are usually succesfull and good to live in and democratic.

Countries with socialism usually fail politically, ecenomically and democratically and are no good to live in.

0 Replies
 
DrewDad
 
  1  
Reply Fri 4 Dec, 2009 08:09 am
@Green Witch,
I think in the original thread, you are conflating fascism with totalitarianism.
saab
 
  1  
Reply Sat 5 Dec, 2009 01:40 am
You said you have never seen a beggar in Denmark. There sure are some and not so few.

The police Mogens Lauridsen from Station City in Copenhagen said in an interview that beggars from East Europe come here in busses and stay for about a week and earn something like 5- 7000 crowns a week. About 700 dollars. That is a monthly income of 2.800 dollars and no taxes to pay.In reality they do not live as kings, but they certainly do not starve. It is nothing but organiced criminality.
Begging is not allowed in Denmark





Green Witch
 
  1  
Reply Sat 5 Dec, 2009 09:23 am
@DrewDad,
Probably. I was never much of political science major.
0 Replies
 
Green Witch
 
  2  
Reply Sat 5 Dec, 2009 09:33 am
@saab,
Yes, but they have to be bussed in. How many Danes are standing around with an empty coffee cup asking for change? In the US it's hard to find even a small city that doesn't have a homeless population that begs to supplement their daily charity soup and in many cases, addictions. I also think America has a huge population of addicts because of it's economic system. Our treatment programs are underfunded because Americans believe if you have a problem it's up to the individual to solve it - even if it's actually the society's problem. We don't want to invest more money in Afghanistan social stability, but we're happy to buy their number one export crop that keeps the Taliban in funds. It's all about capitalism.
saab
 
  1  
Reply Sat 5 Dec, 2009 10:14 am
@Green Witch,
There are beggers not only in Copenhagen but in other cities too. You will see beggers in England, Ireland, Germany and most other European countries.

Drug addicts come out of every walk of life - more often from poorer families, but also from rich families. Some say it is because you come from a poor family, others that it because you come from a not stabel family others because you come from a richt family.
We don´t see that selling drugs have anything to do with capatalism but pure criminality as selling drugs is a criminal act.
Does America really buy drugs from Afghanistan??? I can´t believe it. So far I have not heard about any country importing drugs for none medical reason.
USA should import drugs and sell on the streets?

The highest death rate by poisoning in drug addicts was observed in Denmark, where it was 6.54 per 105inhabitants, followed by Norway with 6.35, Sweden with 2.21, Finland with 1.63 and Iceland with 1.20 per 105inhabitants. All countries showed a higher death rate in 1997 than in 1991. For all countries the distribution of deaths according to geographical regions showed a decreasing number of drug deaths in the metropolitan area and an increasing number in other cities. Heroin/morphine dominated as the cause of death and was responsible for about 90% of the cases in Norway. In Sweden and Denmark, however, heroin/morphine caused only about 70% of the fatal poisonings. About 30% of the fatal poisonings in Denmark and Sweden were caused by other group I drugs, in Denmark mainly methadone and in Sweden mainly propoxyphene. Apart from two cases in Sweden methadone deaths were not seen in the other Nordic countries. In Finland heroin/morphine deaths have increased from about 10% in 1991 to about 40% in 1997. Forty-four percent of the fatal poisonings in Finland were caused by other group I drugs, mainly codeine and propoxyphene. The two fatal poisonings in Iceland were caused by carbon monoxide. Only few deaths in this investigation were caused by amphetamine and cocaine. A widespread use of alcohol, cannabis and benzodiazepines, especially diazepam, was seen in all the countries.
Green Witch
 
  3  
Reply Sat 5 Dec, 2009 11:54 am
@saab,
It's not so much the use of drugs that come from our economic system, but the way we approach the problem of treatment . Americans rely heavily on charity and religious groups to treat drug addicts. Americans spend a lot on the so called War on Drugs, but that mostly involves throwing people in jail. Other societies seem more focused on spending tax money to help the addict. Americans buy a lot of imported "poppy products". Cocaine (in various forms) is the drug of choice among both the rich and poor in America, second only to marijuana (a whole different tale). Capitalist societies tend to see these problems as more a problem for the individual than they society as a whole. We don't want theirour precious tax money going to the help addicts, but they are fine if we invest in bigger jails (hey, jobs!). I don't know if you see more drug addiction in one system of economics over another, but you certainly see a different way in which tax money is spent to solve the problem.
0 Replies
 
saab
 
  1  
Reply Sat 5 Dec, 2009 12:47 pm
There still is criminality in connection with drug addicts in Denmark.
Some have gone so far down they only care about getting money for drugs.
They don´t care about the help they can get. Others don´t know how to get help.
That´s why there are street workers. Then depending on the social worker you get you might not even get the help you need and have the right to. "Come back when you are clean"
Scandinavians also complains about where their taxmoney goes to.
Green Witch
 
  1  
Reply Sat 5 Dec, 2009 02:29 pm
@saab,
I guess it just goes to show that there is no Utopia. I like to think we will eventually hit upon a system that works for all, but the odds of us agreeing on such a system does not look good.
saab
 
  1  
Reply Sat 5 Dec, 2009 02:56 pm
@Green Witch,
The Scandinavian form of social democracy grew out of the Lutheran Church. Religion and politics mixing with one another in what the Scandinavians found was best for them.
In some other countries social democracy has been pure politics.
People think differently and there is no Utopia
saab
 
  1  
Reply Fri 11 Dec, 2009 03:07 am
@Green Witch,
Just read in the newspaper that Swedish retired people pay more taxes than working people compared with 18 other countries EU 15- Norway- USA-Australia.
An average retired person has 40% less income than an average working person but pays 7% higher taxes, because they have nothing working related to deduct.
0 Replies
 
MASSAGAT
 
  1  
Reply Fri 11 Dec, 2009 03:26 am
Socialism appears to be for "losers". Those who have no confidence in their ability to provide for themselves and their families will, of course, opt for more and more government aid. From Cradle to Grave. Most do not understand that with government aid comes control and compulsion. The US Constitution is clear. The Tenth Amendment gives a large sphere of power to the states in which they can express all of the powers reserved to them as well as those things that the Constitution does not forbid them to do. The National Government, on the other hand can only carry out the powers that the Constitution specifically grants.

SOCIALIST GOVERNMENTS THROUGHOUT THE WORLD ARE STRONG CENTRALIZED GOVERNMENTS. Think "Oceania" as in "1984"
saab
 
  1  
Reply Fri 11 Dec, 2009 03:42 am
@MASSAGAT,
You are wrong as Sweden is not a socialistic country. It is social democratic.
the reason why the retired people happen to pay more taxes is because the working population can deduct a lot from their income.

Sweden has no inheritance taxes and very little fortune taxes.

People who have no ability to provide for themselves should not be taken care of???????
What about young soldiers coming back from war having lost legs or arms????
What about people born disabled or mentally handicapped????
What about people suffering from extreem depression?????
Should they and others just rot in the street????

In case you happen to be a good and faithful church goer I can tell you again that the social democracy in Scandinavia grew out of the Lutheran Church and is not purely political.
0 Replies
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  0  
Reply Fri 11 Dec, 2009 06:43 am
@Green Witch,
Green Witch wrote:
Fascists/Totalitarians love to dangle the promise of communism
as an excuse to hold onto power by saying they are working on
giving everyone an equal share
Mussolini was a life-long socialist, before he founded the Fascist Party,
but I don 't remember him dangling "the promise of communism
as an excuse to hold onto power. . . "

Green Witch wrote:
I'm sure this more than you wanted, David,
but I got on my soapbox and decided to hang on for a time.

Anyone else like to share?
It 's OK to be long.





David
0 Replies
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  0  
Reply Fri 11 Dec, 2009 06:47 am
@MASSAGAT,
MASSAGAT wrote:

Socialism appears to be for "losers". Those who have no confidence in their ability to provide for themselves and their families will, of course, opt for more and more government aid. From Cradle to Grave. Most do not understand that with government aid comes control and compulsion. The US Constitution is clear. The Tenth Amendment gives a large sphere of power to the states in which they can express all of the powers reserved to them as well as those things that the Constitution does not forbid them to do. The National Government, on the other hand can only carry out the powers that the Constitution specifically grants.

SOCIALIST GOVERNMENTS THROUGHOUT THE WORLD ARE STRONG CENTRALIZED GOVERNMENTS. Think "Oceania" as in "1984"
Please note that the 10th Amendment reserved any other power
which is not prohibited by the Constitution,
to the states OR TO THE PEOPLE.

I suggest that we exalt the citizens above the states.




David
MASSAGAT
 
  1  
Reply Sat 12 Dec, 2009 10:32 pm
@OmSigDAVID,
Thank You, OmSig. You are right on the money, as usual.
0 Replies
 
 

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