0
   

Upflow vs Downflow valve with iron

 
 
Reply Thu 3 Dec, 2009 08:08 am
I'm a novice but have been reading and learning about what water softener to put in our newly constructed home. After researching, I had decided a Fleck 5600SE/SXT or a 2510SE/SXT valve might be a good fit. Our water readings are 30 gpg hardness and up to 1 mg/L of iron, 2 adults in the home.

I called a local place and they told me that he'd familiar with our area and that with iron in the water, I should really use an upflow valve (he recommended either Seahorse or Erie) instead of a downflow valve like Fleck. He said he could install a Fleck since he sold them (the 5600) but that a downflow valve would not clean the iron from the resin as effectively and that over time it would not soften the water as effectively.

I have not been able to find anything about this online. Is it true? Furthermore, I can find very little about Seahorse. Is it a quality brand? Should I consider it or is he just pushing a proprietary brand that I should stay away from?

Thanks for any help!
  • Topic Stats
  • Top Replies
  • Link to this Topic
Type: Question • Score: 0 • Views: 9,436 • Replies: 27
No top replies

 
H2O MAN
 
  0  
Reply Thu 3 Dec, 2009 11:31 am
A 1.0 or 1.5 cu. ft. softener with a Fleck 2510SE/SXT control valve sounds great.
For iron... consider a separate 1.5 cu. ft. Vortech tank with Filox and a 2510 SE filter valve.
0 Replies
 
Abel Conklin
 
  1  
Reply Thu 3 Dec, 2009 12:43 pm
I have heard bad things about the 1.5 cu. ft. Vortech tank
0 Replies
 
H2O MAN
 
  0  
Reply Thu 3 Dec, 2009 01:20 pm
I have had 100% excellent results with all of the 10x54 Vortech tanks that I have installed.
I use them for acid neutralizers, Filox iron/HS2O filters and GAC and they do an awesome job of cleaning the media bed.
gustavratzenhofer
 
  2  
Reply Thu 3 Dec, 2009 01:24 pm
@H2O MAN,
I would have to agree with Abel on this one. The 10x54 Vortech tanks seem to reek of instability.
H2O MAN
 
  0  
Reply Thu 3 Dec, 2009 01:25 pm
@gustavratzenhofer,
Gus, how's the therapy going?
Are you now able to block out most of the voices in your head?
0 Replies
 
gustavratzenhofer
 
  2  
Reply Thu 3 Dec, 2009 01:27 pm
Yours is still there and causing me great discomfort.
0 Replies
 
gustavratzenhofer
 
  2  
Reply Thu 3 Dec, 2009 01:28 pm
But I figure the rambling of a water guy is fairly insignificant.
panzade
 
  2  
Reply Thu 3 Dec, 2009 01:42 pm
@gustavratzenhofer,
I dunno...that drip ...drip....drip can drive you crazy
gustavratzenhofer
 
  2  
Reply Thu 3 Dec, 2009 01:43 pm
@panzade,
Well said.
0 Replies
 
gustavratzenhofer
 
  2  
Reply Thu 3 Dec, 2009 01:43 pm
You are wise beyond your years, Panzade. I love you like a brother.
0 Replies
 
H2O MAN
 
  0  
Reply Thu 3 Dec, 2009 02:59 pm
that drip ...drip....drip sounds like the two of you are suffering from a STD, you had better head back to the clinic.
dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Thu 3 Dec, 2009 03:06 pm
@H2O MAN,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IExZKoC_EJE
H2O MAN
 
  0  
Reply Thu 3 Dec, 2009 03:18 pm
@dyslexia,
Nice 45, but I prefer 45 APC
0 Replies
 
Water Aficionado
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Jan, 2010 09:50 pm
You guys have a good sense of humor. Your debate over the [Enpress] Vortech tanks interests me. I have no experience in water softening, but I am thinking about ordering a system online to install myself. I am interested in the Clack WS1 valve, Vortech tank (24000 grains), and SST-60 resin. I need to get my water tested, but it is city water and based on a local university report (with the same water supply), it is probably around 7-8 GPG. The system is only for one bathroom.

H2O Man says he has had good success with the Vortech tanks. However, I noticed that H2O Man only used them for non water softening applications. Everyone else seems to says they are unreliable and problematic. I'm wondering why they do not work well and what are the specific problems. Are the problems related to installation, maintenance, or both?

I'm also interested in KDF process media (KDF-55). I read negative feedback about the mediaguard product so I will not buy it. The KDF media seems to be effective if installed and maintained correctly. I think I might add it to the system later with a separate filter housing unless there is good way to put in the same tank as the resin (separated). It is my understanding that it is better for the water to flow through the KDF before the resin. I found the post (3,767,216) by zaboo3 interesting (towards the end of http://able2know.org/topic/111588-1). I don't think his design is the best though.
Andy CWS
 
  2  
Reply Fri 8 Jan, 2010 02:29 pm
@Water Aficionado,
You guys have a good sense of humor. Your debate over the [Enpress] Vortech tanks interests me.
Vortech is an interesting development in tank design where a diaphram-type screen is manufactured into the tank separating different media. Its fins are slanted to create a swirling effect during backwashing and also creates a very evenly spread flow. These are all beneficial to a point.

The problem lies when media needs to be removed/replaced, the screen cannot be moved as it is 'molded' into the tank during manufacturing. The top media has no problem with emptying but anything below is 'permanent'. This is my understanding.


H2O Man says he has had good success with the Vortech tanks. However, I noticed that H2O Man only used them for non water softening applications.
Yes, there are good success stories with these and you can rely on those with positive experience more than those trying to sell you through thier own web sites and can't stand by their word.

Everyone else seems to says they are unreliable and problematic. I'm wondering why they do not work well and what are the specific problems. Are the problems related to installation, maintenance, or both?
Again, what I said above is my interpretation but I have never worked with them before. I defer to H20man.

I'm also interested in KDF process media (KDF-55). I read negative feedback about the mediaguard product so I will not buy it.
I have used Mediaguard experiementally (field testing) a couple of times. Any media (KDF/carbon) that you put in it will need to be replaced. These compartments are quite hard to disassemble and can crack or split easily.

KDF-55 is very effective at removing chlorine. I use it in my home in conjunction with GAC carbon in a refillable cartridge prior to the softener. Service life depends on a number of factors. This is easy to maintain and refill as needed without messing with the softener.



The KDF media seems to be effective if installed and maintained correctly. I think I might add it to the system later with a separate filter housing unless there is good way to put in the same tank as the resin (separated).
Avoid putting it in a backwashing filter with a huge amount of flow rate. It will channel and solidify becoming useless. Keep the quanitities small and easy to replace

It is my understanding that it is better for the water to flow through the KDF before the resin. I
Sorry, I didn't refer to that earlier post. Yes, removing chlorine will greatly extend the life of the resin and benefit in other ways. Any bacterial scares are either a moot point or easily maintained.

Andy Christensen, CWS-II

Water Aficionado
 
  1  
Reply Fri 8 Jan, 2010 09:39 pm
@Andy CWS,
@ Andy CWS

Thanks, I found your post very informative. If I try out the Vortech tank, I would only put the resin inside (top level). Then it should not be a problem to replace when necessary. I'll try to write a short review on the installation and initial performance (hopefully in the next week or two).

Based on your experience with Mediaguard, it seems like it's not a completely bad product but not the most durable and user friendly either. If the media in Mediaguard was easy to replace and the product held up for 10 years, I would consider buying it.

I like your approach with KDF and GAC carbon. Could you recommend some specific models or general type of the refillable cartridge? I agree with having this setup prior to the softener, but how do you backwash it or do you just replace the media? On the KDF website, the company says the media can last approximately 6 years (I assume with regular backwashing). How long are you able to use it? You suggest small quantities of KDF. The smallest amounts I can find are 4 lbs at apswater.com and 5 lbs on ebay. Is that a reasonable amount? Larger amounts are expensive. The link in my last post referred to zaboo3 who used 20 lbs of KDF. I think the max amount of KDF depends on the flow rate. I have a 3/4" pipe with at least 5 gpm and probably closer to 10 gpm with robust pressure. Unfortunately I don't have the tools to get precise measurements. This installation is for myself so trial and error, repairs, and adjustments are not a problem.
Gary Slusser
 
  1  
Reply Sat 9 Jan, 2010 11:50 am
@Water Aficionado,
The Vortech tank sounds great but I determined my DIY customers would not benefit from it compared to a regular tank with a properly sized gravel underbed and regular distributor tube. The reason is if something goes wrong the entire tank must be replaced at great cost and effort as compared to a $15 regular distributor tube.

The KDF.... adding a media guard or bulk KDF requires a higher gpm DLFC (drain line flow control) to be able to attempt to backwash the KDF so, the softener with KDF in it will use substantially more water than one without KDF in it.

Removing chlorine in city water on a whole house basis can create odor problems caused by bacteria living in carbon filters and softeners.

You are much better off leaving the chlorine in the water (it's there for a very good reason) and filtering your shower with an inexpensive shower head filter (some use KDF) and your drinking water at the kitchen sink with a drinking water filter. You'll spend a lot less money and prevent the need to tear your softener a part to replace KDF every 5-6 years if not sooner. And you'll save on regeneration water use.
Joethewaterguy
 
  1  
Reply Sat 9 Jan, 2010 01:29 pm
@Gary Slusser,
I was wondering about the riser tube going bad, glad that you answered the question that was in my head. As far as the chlorine in the water, if the customers have 2 tanks, carbon first and conditioner second,I tell them to bypass the carbon once every 6 months and run a manual regen on the conditioner. If they don't have a seperate bypass on the carbon tank,(happens alot) to add a cup of bleach every 6 months into the brine tank. I also tell them once a year to bypass everything, at night before they go to bed, run the city/municipal water at every cold water tap till they smell the chlorine, then run the hot at the tub(no restricter) until they smell the chlorine,then at every hot water tap, put the systems back in service, and in the morning run the cold water at each tap till they don't smell the chlorine, and if they wait a couple days the hot water won't have any chlorine smell , or they can run the heck out of the hot water to get it out of the hot water tank. Seems to work great for them.
0 Replies
 
Water Aficionado
 
  1  
Reply Sat 9 Jan, 2010 03:54 pm
@Gary Slusser,
You definitely have a good point about the Vortech tank. A regular tank with gravel costs less initially. Plus it's easier and cheaper to repair.

I think you're right about the KDF in the softener. It requires a higher flow rate and more water to backwash. I want to conserve water as much as possible. The drinking water filter and KDF filter (at the shower) sounds more efficient.

and @Joethewaterguy

I'm no expert on water, but it seems that bacteria in the softener should not be a problem whether the chlorine is in the water or not. I could see it being a problem in the carbon filter. If the chlorine is removed before the softener, the high salt concentration used in regeneration should kill any bacteria in the softener by cytolysis/osmotic lysis. Maybe bacteria could still be a problem in hot water heaters.

Although Joe's maintenance routine doesn't seem to be bad, I wonder if it's necessary. I don't think you need to pour bleach into the brine tank for bacteria because of the salt.
 

Related Topics

Poo-tee-weet? - Question by boomerang
Let's just rename them "Rapeublicans" - Discussion by DrewDad
Which wood laminate flooring? - Question by Buffalo
Lifesource Water versus a 'salt' system - Discussion by USBound
Rainsoft - Discussion by richb1
Crack in Ceiling - Question by Sam29288349
 
  1. Forums
  2. » Upflow vs Downflow valve with iron
Copyright © 2024 MadLab, LLC :: Terms of Service :: Privacy Policy :: Page generated in 0.03 seconds on 02/22/2024 at 09:45:30