PS, It only requires some imagination; I can remember when Dick Tracy had a wrist watch telephone which we thought would never happen. The cell phones of today far exceeds whatever the creator of Dick Tracy ever thought possible. It not only has a telephone, tv, camera, calculator, and all the bells and whistles of computers, it makes us wonder how much further technology will advance.
Derevon and Fridaus - Please help me undertand your beliefs - this is somthing I have no knowledge of:
What did g-d do before he created the universe?
jfc~ the view you posted seemed more interested in discrediting the people who put together the study, than the actual links in the Qu'ran to modern day science....saying Prophet Muhammed, peace be upon him, could have this knowledge from Arab Oral tradition, Aristotle, etc...and associating the study with Osama bin Laden (meanwhile the study was done some 20 years ago), and implying that the scientists were somehow 'lured' into the study, saying, "The commission drew the scientists to its conferences with first-class plane tickets for them and their wives, rooms at the best hotels, $1,000 honoraria, and banquets with Muslim leaders...." This is pretty standard fare as far as I know when you invite a scholar to your country...particularly from Eastern countries where hospitality and tending to the comfort of guests is always a priority, no matter who they are.
This thread was asking for evidence about God's existence....but, likely, if God stood before many of you and shook your hand, you would still not believe. So, i don't intend or expect to turn anyone's mind or heart on this matter. I have studied for myself and found that most religions and religious texts have lost their purity and original form throughout history of mans tampering with them to satisfy their own means....and use this as a form of control, manipulation, etc...not to mention the racism and racial segregation, and general divide (us and them) found in most. I can understand the perspective of not wanting to be part of organized religion, and not being sure in either direction about the existence of God, as I held that view for many years myself. But, it never felt right...so i decided to just live a good life (as i had been) and have my own thing with God. Still, that didn't satisfy my heart, but, i was content with it anyway b/c i didnt want a part of organized religion(it felt to shady to me). unexpectedly, I stumbled upon a religious path that, when i studied it made complete sense to me....every question had a logical answer, and the religious texts were in their original form, never changed by a single letter, and it emphasized my relationship with God above anything or anyone else. so after studying and analyzing the evidence...I made a rational choice to accept this spiritual path and way of life for myself...which i am very satisfied with, and believe to be true and complete, and in accordance with scientific knowledge.
this thread seems more about what people are willing to deduct, rationalize, and accept as truth, or believe....than what is necessarily True. if someone is set on there being no evidence of God's existence, or non-existence and thus believe this to be the ultimate truth...than not much can change their perspective. likewise they would argue the other way around too.
Portal Star...that is a good question. I seem to remember vaguely about this but, can not remember exactly, so i need to find out clearly before i can answer your question.
Portal Star wrote:Derevon and Fridaus - Please help me undertand your beliefs - this is somthing I have no knowledge of:
What did g-d do before he created the universe?
Here is how I see it:
God exists outside time and space, in eternity. In order for concepts such as "before" and "after" to have meaning, there must be time. Time cannot exist without space, and conversely, space cannot exist without time. Thus your question is inapplicable. No finite being could possibly comprehend infinity or eternity; our minds simply aren't "designed" for that. We are linear creatures in our very nature.
firdaus wrote:jfc~ the view you posted seemed more interested in discrediting the people who put together the study, than the actual links in the Qu'ran to modern day science...
If you read the article, you'll see it clearly suggests that the
content of the report you posted was flawed, not that the people behind it were not credible.
firdaus wrote:....saying Prophet Muhammed, peace be upon him, could have this knowledge from Arab Oral tradition, Aristotle, etc...and associating the study with Osama bin Laden (meanwhile the study was done some 20 years ago), and implying that the scientists were somehow 'lured' into the study...
I think there is a real distinction between giving an academic an honorarium and the deliberate distortion of that academic's statements. And if such pervasive intellectual dishonesty is "pretty standard fare" in terms of Arab hospitality, then I would have to conclude that we have very different notions of "hospitality."
firdaus wrote:This thread was asking for evidence about God's existence....but, likely, if God stood before many of you and shook your hand, you would still not believe.
It would depend a lot on the firmness of his handshake. Also, I'd need to take a close look at his business card.
firdaus wrote:So, i don't intend or expect to turn anyone's mind or heart on this matter.
Then don't cut-and-paste long articles that attempt to do just that.
Derevon wrote:God exists outside time and space, in eternity. In order for concepts such as "before" and "after" to have meaning, there must be time. Time cannot exist without space, and conversely, space cannot exist without time. Thus your question is inapplicable. No finite being could possibly comprehend infinity or eternity; our minds simply aren't "designed" for that. We are linear creatures in our very nature.
That's a pretty good answer.
Derevon wrote:Portal Star wrote:Derevon and Fridaus - Please help me undertand your beliefs - this is somthing I have no knowledge of:
What did g-d do before he created the universe?
Here is how I see it:
God exists outside time and space, in eternity. In order for concepts such as "before" and "after" to have meaning, there must be time. Time cannot exist without space, and conversely, space cannot exist without time. Thus your question is inapplicable. No finite being could possibly comprehend infinity or eternity; our minds simply aren't "designed" for that. We are linear creatures in our very nature.
We have a word for it - infinity - and that means somthing. Infinity is somthing never ending and never beginning. I can't get a mental picture of it (because it would keep getting larger or smaller), but I can understand the concept. That's enough comprehension for me to understand the idea.
If g-d himself is finite, that means he can die. That also means that anything created needs a creator, so who created g-d?
If he is not finite, and he created time and space, (and especially if he has some human-like qualities) surely he must have done somthing else for the rest of eternity.
firdaus wrote:This thread was asking for evidence about God's existence....but, likely, if God stood before many of you and shook your hand, you would still not believe.
this thread seems more about what people are willing to deduct, rationalize, and accept as truth, or believe....than what is necessarily True. if someone is set on there being no evidence of God's existence, or non-existence and thus believe this to be the ultimate truth...than not much can change their perspective. likewise they would argue the other way around too.
Portal Star...that is a good question. I seem to remember vaguely about this but, can not remember exactly, so i need to find out clearly before i can answer your question.
Can't wait to hear what you find.
The first is a silly assumption. G-d shaking his fist in front of someone would be physical rational proof - proof of the nature you are saying cannot lead to truth. So it sounds like you would not acknowledge seeing when g-d shook his fist.
I believe we have all used arguements based on evidence or the lack thereof - and that's the special thing about using rational logic - it is falsifiable and can and should be contradicted in the presence of new information. Are you familiar with the scientific method?
Surely you acknowledge truths can be discovered through science - we can observe patterns and anticipate future mechanics with it - this allows us to create new things that (because these theories are true) work - like computers and spaceships.
Should believing in the existance of a g-d with certain characteristics, namely Jesus, be the only place rationality should not apply?
Let's discuss your last post one item at a time:
Derevon wrote:Frank Apisa wrote:The truth for me is that I do not know if there is a God or not. That is the TRUTH. If there is a God -- nothing has been lost because I have acknowledged that truth. And conversely, if there are no gods, nothing has been lost by me acknowledging the truth either. Either way ? nothing has been lost by sticking with the truth.
MY GUESS is that you do not know if there is a God or not -- but you simply cannot be truthful enough to acknowledge that fact.
You believe I'm lying about my faith? Or just that faith is dishonest?
Neither. I am simply saying exactly what I said.
Let me put it differently: Specifically -- do you KNOW there is a God or not?
When I get that answer, I'll go further with my explanation.
As far as "faith" is concerned -- in my opinion, faith, when used in the religious context, is nothing more than stone headedness. "Faith" in a particular "belief" -- is nothing more than insisting that your guess about some unknown, is correct.
The only reason you religious people make so much of the "faith" issue is because you have nothing else upon which to base your religions. So you try to make it seem like a virtue -- when in fact, it is a vice.
Portal Star wrote:Derevon wrote:Portal Star wrote:Derevon and Fridaus - Please help me undertand your beliefs - this is somthing I have no knowledge of:
What did g-d do before he created the universe?
Here is how I see it:
God exists outside time and space, in eternity. In order for concepts such as "before" and "after" to have meaning, there must be time. Time cannot exist without space, and conversely, space cannot exist without time. Thus your question is inapplicable. No finite being could possibly comprehend infinity or eternity; our minds simply aren't "designed" for that. We are linear creatures in our very nature.
We have a word for it - infinity - and that means somthing. Infinity is somthing never ending and never beginning. I can't get a mental picture of it (because it would keep getting larger or smaller), but I can understand the concept. That's enough comprehension for me to understand the idea.
If g-d himself is finite, that means he can die. That also means that anything created needs a creator, so who created g-d?
If he is not finite, and he created time and space, (and especially if he has some human-like qualities) surely he must have done somthing else for the rest of eternity.
God is infinite and can of course not die or cease to exist, nor was he created. I think it's wrong to see God as a glorified human. God is a personality, but that doesn't mean he is like us. Much about God is unfathomable for us humans, beyond the grasp of our comprehension. All we can really do about such things is to speculate, and I don't think there's much point in that.
PS, You pose a good question. Who created god, especially since man is created in his "image."
Derevon
Every once in a while you say something truly interesting, perceptive, and important..
In response to Portal Star, you wrote:
Quote:God is infinite and can of course not die or cease to exist, nor was he created. I think it's wrong to see God as a glorified human. God is a personality, but that doesn't mean he is like us. Much about God is unfathomable for us humans, beyond the grasp of our comprehension. All we can really do about such things is to speculate, and I don't think there's much point in that.
What you had to say in that last sentence was "interesting, perceptive, and important.
You really ought to pay attention to yourself.
If you had, you wouldn't have written the the first sentence of that paragraph -- nor the second.
Pay attention to what you have to say, Derevon. It'll make you a more logical person.
Frank Apisa wrote:Derevon
Every once in a while you say something truly interesting, perceptive, and important..
In response to Portal Star, you wrote:
Quote:God is infinite and can of course not die or cease to exist, nor was he created. I think it's wrong to see God as a glorified human. God is a personality, but that doesn't mean he is like us. Much about God is unfathomable for us humans, beyond the grasp of our comprehension. All we can really do about such things is to speculate, and I don't think there's much point in that.
What you had to say in that last sentence was "interesting, perceptive, and important.
You really ought to pay attention to yourself.
If you had, you wouldn't have written the the first sentence of that paragraph -- nor the second.
Pay attention to what you have to say, Derevon. It'll make you a more logical person.
Note that I said "much about God". Rest assured that the important things can be grasped. God will never require what is impossible of a person.
Quote:Quote:Quote:The truth for me is that I do not know if there is a God or not. That is the TRUTH. If there is a God -- nothing has been lost because I have acknowledged that truth. And conversely, if there are no gods, nothing has been lost by me acknowledging the truth either. Either way ? nothing has been lost by sticking with the truth.
MY GUESS is that you do not know if there is a God or not -- but you simply cannot be truthful enough to acknowledge that fact.
You believe I'm lying about my faith? Or just that faith is dishonest?
Neither. I am simply saying exactly what I said.
What do you mean by saying that you guess that I cannot be truthful enough to acknowledge that I cannot know whether or not God exists? Please elaborate on why you don't think that I can be truthful about it.
I wonder if god has genetalia.
Derevon wrote:Portal Star wrote:Derevon wrote:Portal Star wrote:Derevon and Fridaus - Please help me undertand your beliefs - this is somthing I have no knowledge of:
What did g-d do before he created the universe?
Here is how I see it:
God exists outside time and space, in eternity. In order for concepts such as "before" and "after" to have meaning, there must be time. Time cannot exist without space, and conversely, space cannot exist without time. Thus your question is inapplicable. No finite being could possibly comprehend infinity or eternity; our minds simply aren't "designed" for that. We are linear creatures in our very nature.
We have a word for it - infinity - and that means somthing. Infinity is somthing never ending and never beginning. I can't get a mental picture of it (because it would keep getting larger or smaller), but I can understand the concept. That's enough comprehension for me to understand the idea.
If g-d himself is finite, that means he can die. That also means that anything created needs a creator, so who created g-d?
If he is not finite, and he created time and space, (and especially if he has some human-like qualities) surely he must have done somthing else for the rest of eternity.
God is infinite and can of course not die or cease to exist, nor was he created. I think it's wrong to see God as a glorified human. God is a personality, but that doesn't mean he is like us. Much about God is unfathomable for us humans, beyond the grasp of our comprehension. All we can really do about such things is to speculate, and I don't think there's much point in that.
if you don't know what g-d did before he created the universe, and think that is mere speculation, why isn't the creation of the universe also speculation? People weren't around for a large part of the beginning of the universe, we are fairly recent.
We claim to know he created the universe, but we don't know what he did before that creation, or what he did before us.
We know from science that dinosaurs existed before humans did, and various other kinds of life. There is the religious theory that a "day" really meant some number of thousands of years, but what was g-d doing then? Preparing it for us? Doing test experiments?
What I'm trying to get at is, if what g-d did before the universe was created is mere speculation, why isn't the creation of the universe and happenings thereafter mere speculation? Humans weren't around.
cicerone imposter wrote:I wonder if god has genetalia.
If g-d is a "he" gentlia are implied. This makes sense with the judeo-christian-muslim g-d, because adam was created in g-ds image, and eve was created out of adam's rib (farther removed from g-d.) So, if Adam is created in g-d's image, g-d must be male.
Derevon wrote:Note that I said "much about God". Rest assured that the important things can be grasped. God will never require what is impossible of a person.
Nonsense! Every indication is that you don't KNOW anything about any gods.
And because you cannot acknowledge that fact, I am accusing you of defacto lying.
Quote:What do you mean by saying that you guess that I cannot be truthful enough to acknowledge that I cannot know whether or not God exists? Please elaborate on why you don't think that I can be truthful about it.
It is painfully obvious that you cannot be truthful about what you know and what you do not know when it comes to this god stuff.
It also is obvious that...
You pretend that you know there is a god.
You pretend that you know what that god is like.
You pretend that you know what pleases that god -- and what offends that god.
You pretend that you know what that god expects of humans.
You are The Great Pretender, Derevon.
Doesn't make you a bad person.
But it does make you untruthful.
Portal Star wrote:Derevon wrote:Portal Star wrote:Derevon wrote:Portal Star wrote:Derevon and Fridaus - Please help me undertand your beliefs - this is somthing I have no knowledge of:
What did g-d do before he created the universe?
Here is how I see it:
God exists outside time and space, in eternity. In order for concepts such as "before" and "after" to have meaning, there must be time. Time cannot exist without space, and conversely, space cannot exist without time. Thus your question is inapplicable. No finite being could possibly comprehend infinity or eternity; our minds simply aren't "designed" for that. We are linear creatures in our very nature.
We have a word for it - infinity - and that means somthing. Infinity is somthing never ending and never beginning. I can't get a mental picture of it (because it would keep getting larger or smaller), but I can understand the concept. That's enough comprehension for me to understand the idea.
If g-d himself is finite, that means he can die. That also means that anything created needs a creator, so who created g-d?
If he is not finite, and he created time and space, (and especially if he has some human-like qualities) surely he must have done somthing else for the rest of eternity.
God is infinite and can of course not die or cease to exist, nor was he created. I think it's wrong to see God as a glorified human. God is a personality, but that doesn't mean he is like us. Much about God is unfathomable for us humans, beyond the grasp of our comprehension. All we can really do about such things is to speculate, and I don't think there's much point in that.
if you don't know what g-d did before he created the universe, and think that is mere speculation, why isn't the creation of the universe also speculation? People weren't around for a large part of the beginning of the universe, we are fairly recent.
We claim to know he created the universe, but we don't know what he did before that creation, or what he did before us.
We know from science that dinosaurs existed before humans did, and various other kinds of life. There is the religious theory that a "day" really meant some number of thousands of years, but what was g-d doing then? Preparing it for us? Doing test experiments?
What I'm trying to get at is, if what g-d did before the universe was created is mere speculation, why isn't the creation of the universe and happenings thereafter mere speculation? Humans weren't around.
As I said, I don't believe there is any "before the universe was created". One simply cannot attack this problem from the perspective you're proposing. As for the creation of the universe and the things that happened before humanity turned up, it's of course speculation too, in the sense that it cannot be scientifically proven.
As for the creation narrative in the Bible/Torah, I don't think it was meant to be a historical account of the creation of Earth, but rather a description of something completely different, written using symbolism. What it really means, I don't know.
Deveron, Just another perspective on christian teaching of the catholic church. Many of their contemporary teachings have diverted 180 degrees from their teachings from 100 years ago, because they have found so many inconsistencies in the bible as to the creation of this earth and its inhabitants. A catholic priest even informed me that they don't even follow the seven day creation story of the bible. I think it becomes more difficult for christians to defend their position of their religious teachings simply because the bible cannot be defended in any way, and that's the primary source for their faith and belief system.
Frank Apisa wrote:Derevon wrote:Note that I said "much about God". Rest assured that the important things can be grasped. God will never require what is impossible of a person.
Nonsense! Every indication is that you don't KNOW anything about any gods.
And because you cannot acknowledge that fact, I am accusing you of defacto lying.
Quote:What do you mean by saying that you guess that I cannot be truthful enough to acknowledge that I cannot know whether or not God exists? Please elaborate on why you don't think that I can be truthful about it.
It is painfully obvious that you cannot be truthful about what you know and what you do not know when it comes to this god stuff.
It also is obvious that...
You pretend that you know there is a god.
You pretend that you know what that god is like.
You pretend that you know what pleases that god -- and what offends that god.
You pretend that you know what that god expects of humans.
You are The Great Pretender, Derevon.
Doesn't make you a bad person.
But it does make you untruthful.
Ok, let's just end this. There's simply no point in discussing this, since you don't believe in the kind of faith I've previously described. You're not even considering the possibility that it could be real, because it doesn't fit into your conception of the world. That pretty much makes you close-minded in my opinion.
