How are RELIGION, SPIRITUAlITY and PHILOSOPHY different?

truth
Hey guys. Chill out. Firdaus and Deveron are not imposing their religion on us; they are only SHARING their perspective. If it works for them, why not? It doesn't work for me, but naturalism and science are not religions--they are useful in external ways. F's and D's religion is useful for them in internal ways. In another thread I and Focus and Twyvel tried to share something we perceive about the nature of the self and got jumped on. That was all right; in fact it was, for the most part, fun and challenging. But I would like to ask Firdaus and Deveron how they feel about having to defend their religious orientation.

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Portal Star wrote:

What benefits do you get from belief in g-d? (direct benefits - not things intangible to the physical world such as survival of a soul after bodily death. I would prefer these benefits be exclusive to people who believe in g-d, although I understand there may be overlap.)

There are several concrete benefits. Here are some of them:

* Hope
* A sense of purpose
* Contentment with little
* Consolation in times of sadness
* Peace of mind

It also helps strengthening ones self-confidence, and it helps one to become a better person (more tolerant, forgiving, loving etc).

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You seem to take some things from religious books, and leave others. Sort of a self-tailord g-d, right? But if you are the one choosing what to follow and what not to follow, how is that a moral guideline? Isn't the book what you make it out to be? And doesn't that originate from you and what you were taught?

I don't believe there is a one ultimate, perfect book of all truth. The problem is that the religious texts are written by humans and are thus fallible. There are also contradictions in most books, so in my opinion it's impossible to pick one single book and choose it as the sole source of truth and claim its infallibility. What you can do is to read books with an open mind. If what you read is truth it will likely stay with you forever. If it's not you will probably reject it sooner or later. All this becomes a lot easier when we receive real faith, though, because through it, God helps us to perceive truth.

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Also, if these are your beliefs, why did you quote a study about it being better to believe in g-d in order to get into heaven? Would a g-d (who was not petulant or self-contradictory) create humans with certain biological desires he will torture them for all eternity for obeying?

That was Firdaus I believe.

Here is a qutation from the Urantia Book which I believe answers your questions pretty well:

" 1. Is courage--strength of character--desirable? Then must man be reared in an environment which necessitates grappling with hardships and reacting to disappointments.
2. Is altruism--service of one's fellows--desirable? Then must life experience provide for encountering situations of social inequality.
3. Is hope--the grandeur of trust--desirable? Then human existence must constantly be confronted with insecurities and recurrent uncertainties.
4. Is faith--the supreme assertion of human thought--desirable? Then must the mind of man find itself in that troublesome predicament where it ever knows less than it can believe.
5. Is the love of truth and the willingness to go wherever it leads,
desirable? Then must man grow up in a world where error is present and
falsehood always possible.
6. Is idealism--the approaching concept of the divine--desirable? Then
must man struggle in an environment of relative goodness and beauty,
surroundings stimulative of the irrepressible reach for better things.
7. Is loyalty--devotion to highest duty--desirable? Then must man carry
on amid the possibilities of betrayal and desertion. The valor of devotion to
duty consists in the implied danger of default.
8. Is unselfishness--the spirit of self-forgetfulness--desirable? Then
must mortal man live face to face with the incessant clamoring of an
inescapable self for recognition and honor. Man could not dynamically choose the divine life if there were no self-life to forsake. Man could never lay saving hold on righteousness if there were no potential evil to exalt and
differentiate the good by contrast.
9. Is pleasure--the satisfaction of happiness--desirable? Then must man live in a world where the alternative of pain and the likelihood of suffering are ever-present experiential possibilities."

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I could easily pretend an inanimate object were g-d. I would feel silly, but with a little imagination it could be done. People do this all the time with idol worship. I had at one point believed in different g-ds under different religions, without any percievable difference. Still no difference. No biological evidence pointing to a g-d or g-d's. You're right that other information doesn't have to contradict the existance of g-d, but people who follow religious books and consider the books the word of g-d will not accept information which contradicts the written information (supposedly from g-d.) Abstractly speaking, a g-d wouldn't have to interact with the physical world in any way for you to believe in one, or for this being to have created earth. So on it's own, no interference. But in books, and the minds of people who have ascribed characteristics and undeniable physical earthly impact - there are inhibitions of new thought. Blocks on rationalization caused by facts they consider non-falsifiable.

I agree with you pretty much on this one. I believe it's dangerous to perceive any book as the written and infallible word of God. One should always try to have an open mind, and not be quick to reject new ideas. One should also have in mind that people interpret what they read quite differently. That which means one thing to one person may mean something very different to another. So even if one considers a book infallible, one should at least always be open to new interpretations.

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Frank Apisa wrote:

Derevon wrote:
cicerone imposter wrote:
Derevon, Who is god? Can you please describe him/her/it? What are his/her/it's physical features? What other thing besides music does god create/control/share with us humans?

Below I have tried to convey how I perceive God:

God is the first cause, the supreme being and the infinite upholder. But most importantly, God is our Father, and we are his sons/daughters.

God is eternal and transcends time and space. God is complete in all aspects of perfection; incapable of evil and error; infinite in wisdom, goodness and love; omniscient, omnipotent and omnipresent.

God's love for each and every one of his children is infinite; limited only by our own capacity to receive it. The better we come to know God the more we will perceive of his love and the more we will love him in return. The love I am referring to is nothing like any physical (chemical) kind of love, nor is it mere affection. This love is of a totally different nature and is from God himself.

God is goodness, beauty and truth. Through these three qualities we can better understand God. When a person has true faith these three will affect him/her in a very profound kind of way, touching the innermost depths of his/her heart.

Egad! You really are hooked.

But these are some interesting guesses -- even if they don't stack up very well with the information we have about the gods that are most common these days.

By any chance -- is the "God" you reference -- the god described in the Bible?

Yes, the one who Jesus testified about. There are no other gods beside him.

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Re: truth

JLNobody wrote:

Hey guys. Chill out. Firdaus and Deveron are not imposing their religion on us; they are only SHARING their perspective. If it works for them, why not? It doesn't work for me, but naturalism and science are not religions--they are useful in external ways. F's and D's religion is useful for them in internal ways. In another thread I and Focus and Twyvel tried to share something we perceive about the nature of the self and got jumped on. That was all right; in fact it was, for the most part, fun and challenging. But I would like to ask Firdaus and Deveron how they feel about having to defend their religious orientation.

I don't mind.

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I asked Derevon if the god he/she claimed was "loving, kind, beautiful" and such -- were the god described in the bible -- and he/she responded:

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Yes, the one who Jesus testified about. There are no other gods beside him.

Since you see okay with the idea of discussing this issue, I will disregard JL comments and continue.

You make so many categorical statements about the unknown, Derevon, I have to wonder how you come to the knowledge you profess to know -- or if you are simply stating "beliefs", but stating them as facts rather than guesses.

So a few questions are in order:

How do you know there is a God?

How do you know your god is the only god?

Why do you suppose your god is loving, kind, and all that kind of thing -- when you say your god is the god described in the Bible -- and the god described in the Bible is jealous, quick to anger, slow to forgive, almost comically tyrannical, vengeful, revengeful, murderous, barbaric, and petty?

And last but not least, by any means: If you suppose some god is communicating with you in some way to give you supposed knowledge of its existence -- how do you know you are not being delusional?

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JL

I don't think others jumped on you -- and I am not jumping on anyone here.

It is in the nature of these kinds of discussions that some things get said that can be misinterpreted as an attack -- but that is almost inevitable when different perspectives clash.

If I do get out of hand, please let me know. I respect your opinion. But do allow me enough slack to actually make my points.

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Frank Apisa wrote:

Derevon wrote:
Frank Apisa wrote:
Derevon writes:

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If a person wholeheartedly and persistently chooses to accept God and his ways, and really tries to know him and to be led by him, God will eventually reveal himself to this person, through faith. This kind of faith is nothing like mere belief; it's more like some kind of mystical insight which lets one know with absolute certainty that God is real and that he is your father, and you his son/daughter and many other things.

firdaus agrees, saying:

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That was a very beautiful description, and I agree with your view. True faith is a gift from God...

Fact is, if one "wholeheartedly and persistently" chooses to accept Zeus -- Zeus will eventually "reveal" himself to that person.

Both Derevon and Firdaus cover their tracks by noting that "faith" ultimately plays a part in this supposed "knowledge" of God -- or as Derevon puts it "knowing with absolute certainty."

I would ask this of both Derevon and Firdaus:

I recognize, as you both do, that it appears one cannot prove that God exists.

But can either of you prove that you are not delusional about God confirming Its existence?

How do you know you are not being delusional?

It's not only about God revealing himself, it also transforms a person entirely. It's like to be born anew. I perceive acts of goodness now in ways that I did not do before, for example if I see a person commit a truly altruistic act of goodness against a fellow human being it profoundly touches me and I can feel the higher truth of such an act; that by receiving this person you are indeed receiving God himself. This was just an example of how things have changed for me.

The fact that these changes also are in perfect accord with the teachings of Jesus should also strengthen the credibility. I've come to perceive the truth of many things which Jesus said through own religious experience.

I understand how this faith I am talking about must seem utterly incomprehensible to those who have not experienced it, but I can assure you that it's perfectly real, and nothing like mere belief. I'm sure it would be possible to persuade oneself into believing stupid things, but still, these beliefs would be nothing like the faith I'm attempting to describe.

I note that you did not answer the question.

Allow me to repeat it:

How do you know you are not deluding yourself?

I don't really understand what kind of answer you're looking for. Could anyone possibly prove anything? In order to prove something, there has to be some kind of framework which is universally accepted. Even then there cannot be any real proof in the ultimate sense. What we can do is to try out our hypotheses and see how well they fit into this framework, but even if they seem to fit in everywhere it doesn't necessarily mean that they are ultimate and eternal truths.

So the answer has to be that I have faith that I'm not deluding myself. Of course it's impossible for me to prove that I'm not. This is religion we're talking about, and in the end it's not about facts, reasoning or logical deduction.

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Frank Apisa wrote:

I asked Derevon if the god he/she claimed was "loving, kind, beautiful" and such -- were the god described in the bible -- and he/she responded:

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Yes, the one who Jesus testified about. There are no other gods beside him.

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Since you see okay with the idea of discussing this issue, I will disregard JL comments and continue.

You make so many categorical statements about the unknown, Derevon, I have to wonder how you come to the knowledge you profess to know -- or if you are simply stating "beliefs", but stating them as facts rather than guesses.

So a few questions are in order:

How do you know there is a God?

First I believed with the mind, and then I received faith. These are not simply some arbitrary guesses I'm coming up with. Through faith I've come to realize them as truths. When one has faith things become clear in a way that would be impossible to convey to someone who hasn't experienced it. So you should regard my statements as a testimony that God is indeed these things, and not accept them as universal truth just because I say so.

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How do you know your god is the only god?

That is one of the things realized through faith.

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Why do you suppose your god is loving, kind, and all that kind of thing -- when you say your god is the god described in the Bible -- and the god described in the Bible is jealous, quick to anger, slow to forgive, almost comically tyrannical, vengeful, revengeful, murderous, barbaric, and petty?

Note that I said I believe in God as Jesus testified of him. I don't believe in the bible as the infallible written word of God, I believe it's written by humans. I ascribe any claims of a vengeful, jealous or otherwise imperfect God to human error and misunderstanding. I'm of the opinion that if you want to know what God is really like, the teachings of Jesus Christ are the ones you should focus on.

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And last but not least, by any means: If you suppose some god is communicating with you in some way to give you supposed knowledge of its existence -- how do you know you are not being delusional?

I cannot prove it, but when one has true faith things become very clear, as aforementioned. It's real in a sense that probably would be impossible for someone who has not experienced it to comprehend. It really feels as ultimate truth from God.

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Derevon wrote:

This is religion we're talking about, and in the end it's not about facts, reasoning or logical deduction.

AMEN!!!

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So the answer has to be that I have faith that I'm not deluding myself. Of course it's impossible for me to prove that I'm not.

So you acknowledge that you MAY be deluding yourself in thinking that your god is confirming its existence. That is exactly what I meant when I wrote "Fact is, if one "wholeheartedly and persistently" chooses to accept Zeus -- Zeus will eventually "reveal" himself to that person."

Fact is, so long as you "wholeheartedly and persistently" choose to accept your god -- you are doing a disservice to your brain -- and if there actually is a GOD, the GOD gave you that brain to use -- not to disservice.

With all the respect in the world, Derevon, all this stuff you "believe" and all the confirmation you suppose you are getting from your god may simply be delusion.

Nothing wrong with that -- but to tout it as knowledge, the way you are, is dishonest.

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I don't really understand what kind of answer you're looking for. Could anyone possibly prove anything? In order to prove something, there has to be some kind of framework which is universally accepted. Even then there cannot be any real proof in the ultimate sense. What we can do is to try out our hypotheses and see how well they fit into this framework, but even if they seem to fit in everywhere it doesn't necessarily mean that they are ultimate and eternal truths.

Sounds good to me. But I was not getting that philosophy from what your were posting.

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Derevon wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:
I asked Derevon if the god he/she claimed was "loving, kind, beautiful" and such -- were the god described in the bible -- and he/she responded:

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Yes, the one who Jesus testified about. There are no other gods beside him.

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Since you see okay with the idea of discussing this issue, I will disregard JL comments and continue.

You make so many categorical statements about the unknown, Derevon, I have to wonder how you come to the knowledge you profess to know -- or if you are simply stating "beliefs", but stating them as facts rather than guesses.

So a few questions are in order:

How do you know there is a God?

First I believed with the mind, and then I received faith. These are not simply some arbitrary guesses I'm coming up with. Through faith I've come to realize them as truths. When one has faith things become clear in a way that would be impossible to convey to someone who hasn't experienced it. So you should regard my statements as a testimony that God is indeed these things, and not accept them as universal truth just because I say so.

After that very fine and intelligent post to which I already replied, you now revert right back to the nonsense.

You cannot possibly have "come to realize them as truths" if what you said earlier was the truth.

For all you know they are delusional guesses -- and you have acknowledged that.

Stick with that.

It is the TRUTH you seem so intent on discovering.

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How do you know your god is the only god?

That is one of the things realized through faith.

I will simply assume by that response you mean that it is not something you know at all -- you are merely guessing and then pretending that the word "faith" disguises the fact that it is a guess.

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Why do you suppose your god is loving, kind, and all that kind of thing -- when you say your god is the god described in the Bible -- and the god described in the Bible is jealous, quick to anger, slow to forgive, almost comically tyrannical, vengeful, revengeful, murderous, barbaric, and petty?

Note that I said I believe in God as Jesus testified of him. I don't believe in the bible as the infallible written word of God, I believe it's written by humans. I ascribe any claims of a vengeful, jealous or otherwise imperfect God to human error and misunderstanding. I'm of the opinion that if you want to know what God is really like, the teachings of Jesus Christ are the ones you should focus on.

This is one of the most unflinching bits of rationalization I've ever read. What on earth were you thinking about when you wrote it?

In effect you are saying that anything in the Bible that you find objectionable -- you are disregarding and dismissing as human error. And anything that furthers your personal agenda with regard to gods -- you are accepting as divine.

That is terrible -- and goes way beyond not being rational or logical. It is, in fact, demonstrably irrational and illogical.

Why would you want to let anyone know you are doing something like that?

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And last but not least, by any means: If you suppose some god is communicating with you in some way to give you supposed knowledge of its existence -- how do you know you are not being delusional?

I cannot prove it, but when one has true faith things become very clear, as aforementioned. It's real in a sense that probably would be impossible for someone who has not experienced it to comprehend. It really feels as ultimate truth from God.

Once again -- this is the kind of thing that someone should use if he/she finds it comforting. But in private! To offer it as reasonable argument in a discussion in an Internet forum is beyond the pale.

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Frank Apisa wrote:

Derevon wrote:
This is religion we're talking about, and in the end it's not about facts, reasoning or logical deduction.

AMEN!!!

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So the answer has to be that I have faith that I'm not deluding myself. Of course it's impossible for me to prove that I'm not.

So you acknowledge that you MAY be deluding yourself in thinking that your god is confirming its existence. That is exactly what I meant when I wrote "Fact is, if one "wholeheartedly and persistently" chooses to accept Zeus -- Zeus will eventually "reveal" himself to that person."

Fact is, so long as you "wholeheartedly and persistently" choose to accept your god -- you are doing a disservice to your brain -- and if there actually is a GOD, the GOD gave you that brain to use -- not to disservice.

With all the respect in the world, Derevon, all this stuff you "believe" and all the confirmation you suppose you are getting from your god may simply be delusion.

Nothing wrong with that -- but to tout it as knowledge, the way you are, is dishonest.

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I don't really understand what kind of answer you're looking for. Could anyone possibly prove anything? In order to prove something, there has to be some kind of framework which is universally accepted. Even then there cannot be any real proof in the ultimate sense. What we can do is to try out our hypotheses and see how well they fit into this framework, but even if they seem to fit in everywhere it doesn't necessarily mean that they are ultimate and eternal truths.

Sounds good to me. But I was not getting that philosophy from what your were posting.

I have no doubts about my faith being real. All I'm saying is that I cannot prove it. Anyway, you're missing the point. It's possible to accept something as real without having scientifical proof for it. Perhaps not for you, but for many of us it is. Just because there are no scientifical proof, it doesn't mean there isn't any substance in this faith. What I've said wasn't meant as rational arguments, but more like a testimony of how I've come to perceive things after I received faith.

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Why do you suppose your god is loving, kind, and all that kind of thing -- when you say your god is the god described in the Bible -- and the god described in the Bible is jealous, quick to anger, slow to forgive, almost comically tyrannical, vengeful, revengeful, murderous, barbaric, and petty?

Note that I said I believe in God as Jesus testified of him. I don't believe in the bible as the infallible written word of God, I believe it's written by humans. I ascribe any claims of a vengeful, jealous or otherwise imperfect God to human error and misunderstanding. I'm of the opinion that if you want to know what God is really like, the teachings of Jesus Christ are the ones you should focus on.

This is one of the most unflinching bits of rationalization I've ever read. What on earth were you thinking about when you wrote it?

In effect you are saying that anything in the Bible that you find objectionable -- you are disregarding and dismissing as human error. And anything that furthers your personal agenda with regard to gods -- you are accepting as divine.

That is terrible -- and goes way beyond not being rational or logical. It is, in fact, demonstrably irrational and illogical.

Why would you want to let anyone know you are doing something like that?

Because I believe more in faith than in the letter of the bible. Through faith I've come to know/realize/be aware of/perceive/whatever that God is all good, perfect etc. Call this a delusion if you like; I'm convinced it's not. Besides, there are as you know many contradictions in the bible. By believing that God would be responsible for these, I would denounce my faith, and that would be profanity in my opinion. Personally I think it's A BIT more likely that a human would do a mistake than that God would.

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truth
Frank, apologies. You're right. I overstated that part about our being "jumped on." And the main purposes of these threads include sharing knowledge/opinion/information AND debate.

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Derevon wrote:

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I have no doubts about my faith being real.

I have no doubts about your faith being real either.

"Your faith" is an insistence that your "beliefs" (your guesses) are correct.

So you are insisting that your guesses are correct.

No big deal there; you certainly are entitled to do that. But if you are that good at guessing, perhaps you would be willing to advise the rest of us about the winners of next week's NFL games. It would help our betting more than you can imagine.

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All I'm saying is that I cannot prove it.

No need to prove it. Who cares how sure you are that your guesses are correct?

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Anyway, you're missing the point. It's possible to accept something as real without having scientifical proof for it.

Of course. People do it all the time. They accept alien abductions; yetis; Bigfoot; leprechauns; unicorns; various gods.

Of what importance is "accepting something?"

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Perhaps not for you, but for many of us it is. Just because there are no scientifical proof, it doesn't mean there isn't any substance in this faith. What I've said wasn't meant as rational arguments, but more like a testimony of how I've come to perceive things after I received faith.

You didn't "receive" faith. You simply have decided that one possible explanation for existence and reality IS WHAT IS.

Fact is, though, that there are dozens of alternate possibilities -- and damn near every one of them is every bit as probable as the one you've arbitrarily and blindly chosen.

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Because I believe more in faith than in the letter of the bible.

Now you are "believing" in "faith!" Good grief! You are guessing that guessing exists????

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Through faith I've come to know/realize/be aware of/perceive/whatever that God is all good, perfect etc.

Through guessing you have decided that there is a god -- and that the god is all the things you want the god to be.

People have been doing that for millennia.

You are trying to make that seem like some kind of virtue. Actually, it is nothing more than gullibility.

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Call this a delusion if you like; I'm convinced it's not.

Okay, I call it a delusion.

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Besides, there are as you know many contradictions in the bible.

Yes. And apparently you have decided that you are able to tell what is correct and what is not.

Isn't your god offended by pride and arrogance?

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By believing that God would be responsible for these, I would denounce my faith, and that would be profanity in my opinion.

Could be! Sounds like you have a dilemma here.

So tell us -- how do you determine what is true and what is false in the Bible???

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Personally I think it's A BIT more likely that a human would do a mistake than that God would.

Ahhhh....of course you mean -- if there are any gods, right?

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Derevon, Your discussion with Frank about your "faith" sufficiently answered all my questions about your belief. You're one of the few with your faith that have admitted to religion not having any logical proof except your own understanding. I know how strong your faith must be, because all my siblings and their children are christians. Thanks for sharing your personal opinion on this subject.

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truth
Yes, Deveron. There is a dignity and humility in your approach that impresses even this atheist.

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Re: truth

JLNobody wrote:

Hey guys. Chill out. Firdaus and Deveron are not imposing their religion on us; they are only SHARING their perspective. If it works for them, why not? It doesn't work for me, but naturalism and science are not religions--they are useful in external ways. F's and D's religion is useful for them in internal ways. In another thread I and Focus and Twyvel tried to share something we perceive about the nature of the self and got jumped on. That was all right; in fact it was, for the most part, fun and challenging. But I would like to ask Firdaus and Deveron how they feel about having to defend their religious orientation.

Because this is an internet forum, and the entire point of a forum is discussion and debate. Would you like to read a forum where everyone said, "Oh, that's nice you feel that way?" I mean no one disrespect, and by battling views and ideas in a civilized structured manner, both parties walk away stronger.

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truth
Portal, I agree. Sorry you did not read my apologies to Frank above.

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JLN - oh, yes I missed it. Sorry.

Devron - some of the things you say make sense, and some seem illogical, non-linear thoughts. Especially the list of things you quoted - it didn't make logical sense, although I think I can see why you posted it as a response to my question. You feel g-d wants to make us grow, challenge us, like in school.
Do you have experimence with strict sciences (Biology, physics, chemistry...) or logical subjects (philosophy, history/historiography)?

The beneficial qualities you listed I get without belief in g-d. So, I don't see those as pointing to a g-d because none of them are exlusive to g-d. I agree that belief in heaven helps people emotionally deal with death in a much easier way. What I miss most about religion is that emotional safety-net for death and the human relationships going to religious functions provided. But don't get me wrong - I'm a lot happier now, and got rid of a lot of conflicting confusion. I find "truth" through study - following observation and using deductive reasoning. I use the sciences as a basis for "truth" - because they have a set process for finding it which makes sense.

All these things that are good about human biengs you attribute to g-d. What if you attributed it to the humans themselves - and saw that those humans were good, not because of the influence of g-d but because of their own choices?

It is unusual that you attribute these things to Jesus. I guess he is the best fitting current g-d, version Judeo-christian 2.0 with the forgiveness and love turned on (unlike the old testeament g-d) although he still has wrath. Because you are custom-tailoring your g-d, how are you so sure Jesus is the right one? What if a prophet who can speak to g-d writes a new book, which describes more what you are feeling? Would that become your g-d? And if you are so sure, and talk to g-d, why don't you write a book or start a church telling others about this g-d?

How would you know you are not delusional? How would you know you are feeling somthing special and out of the ordinary, and that it is g-d? Other people say the same thing about other g-ds and mean it with all their hearts (or whatever part of the brain strong emotions come from.) You seem to give this g-d a parental love and trust - maybe this fills a need in your life? Have you considered that others may not need this kind of influence in their life?

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truth
Portal, I am an atheist, so I understand what you mean when you tell Deveron that you meet your "spiritual" needs without recourse to notions of a God. But I have not detected a spirit of proselytism in Deveron. He or she has merely answered our questions. I do not feel that I am getting a pitch, aggressively delivered. I only say this because I appreciate his, and Firdaus temper as they simply share--but not impose--their belief with us. I'm comparing them to the more aggressive Maliagar and some others. For this reason I'm surprised that you stated to him that "maybe this fills a need in your life [but] Have you considered that others may not need this kind of influence in their life? Did I miss your point?

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JLN, Your mention of maliagar's name only reminds us that some people like Deveron is able to discuss his beliefs in a neutral way without offending or proselytizing. Deveron is a "breath of fresh air" as it concerns this subject.

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