How are RELIGION, SPIRITUAlITY and PHILOSOPHY different?

:-) I will tell u

ISLAM :-)

but please, when discussing about a certain religion, lets look at what really this religion is, and we should do that by going to its original sources. we should'nt let political issues affect our judgement, or say: because this person did this wrong thing then his religion is all wrong.

It happens a lot that people do things that contradict their religion. If you really want to know what happens to the world when Islam is correctly practiced, look at the history of Islam.

:-) thanks for asking

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I like Impish's definitions, but would expand spirituality to mean how one feells about how we react to different situations and or environment. I think I've experienced spirutuality when I have witnessed beautiful landscapes, or heard great music. BTW, Impish, WELCOME to A2K.

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Bahroom, if you feel your religion is good because it complies with logic and morals, why do you ned the religion?

Why not just follow logic, and morals? Cut straight to the source?

In any system of beliefs when there is a presupposed g-dly ordained hierarchy (between that religon and other religions, between man and woman, between one country and another, etc.) there is bound to be conflict.

It is important knowing the source of a religion, but also the interpretation of that religion. For example (a political example), I wouldn't know socialism without reading Marx, but to truly understand socialism, I would have to study history and the interpretation and implementation of his writings on the world, how they affected it.

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bhar, WELCOME to A2K. If what you state is true, then all religions are in BIG trouble, because members of all religions have been guilty of every 'sin' of every religion.

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Barhoom,

Do you consider Mohammad's intercourse with a nine year old girl "moral" ?

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Thanks Cicerone Smile

I have had my deepest, most profound Spiritual experiences out in the Wilds...My first sense of communing with the Divine was in the forest, camping.
Because of being raised by a Seventh Day Adventist Minister (in part) I do not view any Religion as "the right one." I would say the Divine Creator is not subjected to the limited view a mortal may have. I have a Parental view of the Creator myself, and Parental love is inviolate, thus all religions must be right all of us are "saved" or headed for "heaven" howelse could our Parent "save" all of us? Just my thoughts tho~Impish

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Impish, You'd feel right at home with all my siblings and their children, because they're also Seventh-Day Adventists. I'm an atheist married to a wise, intelligent, kind, and good, buddhist woman. Wink

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Quote:

I like Impish's definitions, but would expand spirituality to mean how one feells about how we react to different situations and or environment. I think I've experienced spirutuality when I have witnessed beautiful landscapes, or heard great music. BTW, Impish, WELCOME to A2K.

Haven't you ever felt that the beauty of very good music simply is too great to come from man? Every time when I listen to some of the most beautiful music I know, it feels as if the beauty is of God, and I usually wonder how there could possibly be atheists.

Personally I would define religion as a person's relation to God. Atheism and agnosticism better belong in the realms of philosophy (reasoning about purposes, concepts, our roles in what we perceive to be reality etc) in my opinion.

I am quite sure it's scientifically impossible to prove God's existence or nonexistence, but true religion is not about logical deduction and reasoning (therewith not said that it's incompatible with these). If a person wholeheartedly and persistently chooses to accept God and his ways, and really tries to know him and to be led by him, God will eventually reveal himself to this person, through faith. This kind of faith is nothing like mere belief; it's more like some kind of mystical insight which lets one know with absolute certainty that God is real and that he is your father, and you his son/daughter and many other things. This insight is (to me at least) so strong that it not only transcends belief, but also common memory knowledge. To me God is more real than anything or anyone else.

What faith really is I do not know. It's totally incomparable to anything I had previously experienced. I doubt a person who hasn't experienced it could have even a vaguely accurate idea of what it's like. Once one has faith, though, it doesn't matter in the slightest what it is, because one knows within oneself that it is a gift from God; a gift of hope, purpose and love.

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Derevon~

That was a very beautiful description, and I agree with your view. True faith is a gift from God...which is recieved in the heart, if we are lucky. I recently read an article that was about weighing the scientific proof of there being a God or not. The conclusion was that, the odds are better to believe, and live a life of faith, because if there is no God, you wouldn't have lost anything, but, if there is a God...you'd have lost a lot not believing and rejecting His abundant blessings in this life, and the next.

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firdaus wrote:

Derevon~

That was a very beautiful description, and I agree with your view. True faith is a gift from God...which is recieved in the heart, if we are lucky. I recently read an article that was about weighing the scientific proof of there being a God or not. The conclusion was that, the odds are better to believe, and live a life of faith, because if there is no God, you wouldn't have lost anything, but, if there is a God...you'd have lost a lot not believing and rejecting His abundant blessings in this life, and the next.

A scientific article or method would not be able to include somthing which could not be measured/ is not physical. So I wonder how they weighed these odds. Maybe they assigned a point value to scientific evidence, and a point value to various blessings they thought sounded good. Maybe they tossed a coin, or asked their pastor what he though about it. Sounds solid to me.
What abundant blessings (please list?)

There are negatives: when you believe in somthing without substantial evidence, and will not allow that thing to be contradicted, it inhibits rational thought. No new information may be accepted which contradicts the preheld belief system. Who wants to live blind, not allowed to make rational conclusions or pick up new things with their brain and senses? Er, sorry. Not blind, with "faith."

And how would you know which one to pick? Which rules to obey (Do I have to sign my name that I accept ____ and only ____? Get baptised? Pray to Allah five times daily? Pay a tithing to the Catholic church to avoid purgatory? Lick toads and do spiritual dances with a tribe?) Which version of rules in which decade? What if instead of eternal rewards there are eternal punishments for believing? Or eternal cold feet and hot forehead, while watching full house reruns?
If I wrote a book about it, which later gained popularity and credibility, would everyone be doomed to an eternity of full house reruns for not believing?

Do a test for me - those of you who follow a g-d. I want you to pick an innanimate object or imagined invisible bieng - give it all of the characteristics and attention you would give g-d for a week - attribute good things to it - thank it, ask it for help and guidance. You have to really believe, put your heart into it. If you like you can pick another innanimate object or imagined invisible being - attribute to it all of the negative things that happen, and evils.
Then post what happens a week later.

If g-ds were so impish, self-contradictory, and petulant as the religious books make them out to be, I would rather not be with them for eternity.

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truth
I wouldn't touch this topic because there are simply too many overlaps between the three categories.

But Deveron, as a humanist I must respond to your degradation of human-kind when you said that sometimes you hear music so beautiful that it must be from God. No. It's a shame that belief in and love of God should mean simultaneously a diminution of humankind. I know you meant well. At least that would be so if you invoked God to praise the music rather than the music to praise God--and left the realilty of the composer and the musicians out of the picture.

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Quote:

There are negatives: when you believe in somthing without substantial evidence, and will not allow that thing to be contradicted, it inhibits rational thought. No new information may be accepted which contradicts the preheld belief system. Who wants to live blind, not allowed to make rational conclusions or pick up new things with their brain and senses? Er, sorry. Not blind, with "faith."

In what way would faith in God prevent one from drawing rational conclusions? I don't find God illogical. Although logic is not the key to God, neither excludes the other.

Quote:

And how would you know which one to pick? Which rules to obey (Do I have to sign my name that I accept ____ and only ____? Get baptised? Pray to Allah five times daily? Pay a tithing to the Catholic church to avoid purgatory? Lick toads and do spiritual dances with a tribe?) Which version of rules in which decade? What if instead of eternal rewards there are eternal punishments for believing? Or eternal cold feet and hot forehead, while watching full house reruns?
If I wrote a book about it, which later gained popularity and credibility, would everyone be doomed to an eternity of full house reruns for not believing?

Would it make sense that a being who is supposedly the origin of everything would require you to sign documents about your beliefs or require that you pay money to an organisation in order to secure eternal life? Hardly. God does not go against reason. We may not always see his reasons, but that doesn't mean there aren't any. Religion is not about believing a book to the letter; it's about values and meanings. When reading religious scriptures one should try to look beyond the meaning of the letter into the deeper meanings.

Quote:

Do a test for me - those of you who follow a g-d. I want you to pick an innanimate object or imagined invisible bieng - give it all of the characteristics and attention you would give g-d for a week - attribute good things to it - thank it, ask it for help and guidance. You have to really believe, put your heart into it. If you like you can pick another innanimate object or imagined invisible being - attribute to it all of the negative things that happen, and evils.
Then post what happens a week later.

Religion isn't about arbitrarily choosing to believe in a deity of choice and assigning certains qualities to it. I couldn't do this any more than you could. It's not about persuading oneself about various things, it's about seeking truth, and in order to seek truth an open mind is required. One takes in impressions and tries to place them somewhere in the puzzle where they seem to fit. Openmindedness and sincerity are essential to religion.

Quote:

If g-ds were so impish, self-contradictory, and petulant as the religious books make them out to be, I would rather not be with them for eternity.

Me neither. Fortunately God is neither self-contradictory, nor petulant.

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Re: truth

JLNobody wrote:

I wouldn't touch this topic because there are simply too many overlaps between the three categories.

But Deveron, as a humanist I must respond to your degradation of human-kind when you said that sometimes you hear music so beautiful that it must be from God. No. It's a shame that belief in and love of God should mean simultaneously a diminution of humankind. I know you meant well. At least that would be so if you invoked God to praise the music rather than the music to praise God--and left the realilty of the composer and the musicians out of the picture.

I don't believe that the beauty of a great piece of music that a human has composed is really his own. A human can assemble notes, arrange, orchestrate etc, but the harmonies are still God's. Any true beauty found in music is thus originally of God and not of man in my opinion.

The same goes for goodness. I believe that all true goodness originally emanates from God. I don't believe that a person can be truly good by himself.

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Derevon, Who is god? Can you please describe him/her/it? What are his/her/it's physical features? What other thing besides music does god create/control/share with us humans?

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What benefits do you get from belief in g-d? (direct benefits - not things intangible to the physical world such as survival of a soul after bodily death. I would prefer these benefits be exclusive to people who believe in g-d, although I understand there may be overlap.)

You seem to take some things from religious books, and leave others. Sort of a self-tailord g-d, right? But if you are the one choosing what to follow and what not to follow, how is that a moral guideline? Isn't the book what you make it out to be? And doesn't that originate from you and what you were taught?
Also, if these are your beliefs, why did you quote a study about it being better to believe in g-d in order to get into heaven? Would a g-d (who was not petulant or self-contradictory) create humans with certain biological desires he will torture them for all eternity for obeying?

G-d is a metaphor for the unknown, and a reinforcement of society-civilization values.

I could easily pretend an inanimate object were g-d. I would feel silly, but with a little imagination it could be done. People do this all the time with idol worship. I had at one point believed in different g-ds under different religions, without any percievable difference. Still no difference. No biological evidence pointing to a g-d or g-d's. You're right that other information doesn't have to contradict the existance of g-d, but people who follow religious books and consider the books the word of g-d will not accept information which contradicts the written information (supposedly from g-d.) Abstractly speaking, a g-d wouldn't have to interact with the physical world in any way for you to believe in one, or for this being to have created earth. So on it's own, no interference. But in books, and the minds of people who have ascribed characteristics and undeniable physical earthly impact - there are inhibitions of new thought. Blocks on rationalization caused by facts they consider non-falsifiable.

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Derevon writes:

Quote:

If a person wholeheartedly and persistently chooses to accept God and his ways, and really tries to know him and to be led by him, God will eventually reveal himself to this person, through faith. This kind of faith is nothing like mere belief; it's more like some kind of mystical insight which lets one know with absolute certainty that God is real and that he is your father, and you his son/daughter and many other things.

firdaus agrees, saying:

Quote:

That was a very beautiful description, and I agree with your view. True faith is a gift from God...

Fact is, if one "wholeheartedly and persistently" chooses to accept Zeus -- Zeus will eventually "reveal" himself to that person.

Both Derevon and Firdaus cover their tracks by noting that "faith" ultimately plays a part in this supposed "knowledge" of God -- or as Derevon puts it "knowing with absolute certainty."

I would ask this of both Derevon and Firdaus:

I recognize, as you both do, that it appears one cannot prove that God exists.

But can either of you prove that you are not delusional about God confirming Its existence?

How do you know you are not being delusional?

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cicerone imposter wrote:

Derevon, Who is god? Can you please describe him/her/it? What are his/her/it's physical features? What other thing besides music does god create/control/share with us humans?

Below I have tried to convey how I perceive God:

God is the first cause, the supreme being and the infinite upholder. But most importantly, God is our Father, and we are his sons/daughters.

God is eternal and transcends time and space. God is complete in all aspects of perfection; incapable of evil and error; infinite in wisdom, goodness and love; omniscient, omnipotent and omnipresent.

God's love for each and every one of his children is infinite; limited only by our own capacity to receive it. The better we come to know God the more we will perceive of his love and the more we will love him in return. The love I am referring to is nothing like any physical (chemical) kind of love, nor is it mere affection. This love is of a totally different nature and is from God himself.

God is goodness, beauty and truth. Through these three qualities we can better understand God. When a person has true faith these three will affect him/her in a very profound kind of way, touching the innermost depths of his/her heart.

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Frank Apisa wrote:

Derevon writes:

Quote:
If a person wholeheartedly and persistently chooses to accept God and his ways, and really tries to know him and to be led by him, God will eventually reveal himself to this person, through faith. This kind of faith is nothing like mere belief; it's more like some kind of mystical insight which lets one know with absolute certainty that God is real and that he is your father, and you his son/daughter and many other things.

firdaus agrees, saying:

Quote:
That was a very beautiful description, and I agree with your view. True faith is a gift from God...

Fact is, if one "wholeheartedly and persistently" chooses to accept Zeus -- Zeus will eventually "reveal" himself to that person.

Both Derevon and Firdaus cover their tracks by noting that "faith" ultimately plays a part in this supposed "knowledge" of God -- or as Derevon puts it "knowing with absolute certainty."

I would ask this of both Derevon and Firdaus:

I recognize, as you both do, that it appears one cannot prove that God exists.

But can either of you prove that you are not delusional about God confirming Its existence?

How do you know you are not being delusional?

It's not only about God revealing himself, it also transforms a person entirely. It's like to be born anew. I perceive acts of goodness now in ways that I did not do before, for example if I see a person commit a truly altruistic act of goodness against a fellow human being it profoundly touches me and I can feel the higher truth of such an act; that by receiving this person you are indeed receiving God himself. This was just an example of how things have changed for me.

The fact that these changes also are in perfect accord with the teachings of Jesus should also strengthen the credibility. I've come to perceive the truth of many things which Jesus said through own religious experience.

I understand how this faith I am talking about must seem utterly incomprehensible to those who have not experienced it, but I can assure you that it's perfectly real, and nothing like mere belief. I'm sure it would be possible to persuade oneself into believing stupid things, but still, these beliefs would be nothing like the faith I'm attempting to describe.

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Derevon wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:
Derevon writes:

Quote:
If a person wholeheartedly and persistently chooses to accept God and his ways, and really tries to know him and to be led by him, God will eventually reveal himself to this person, through faith. This kind of faith is nothing like mere belief; it's more like some kind of mystical insight which lets one know with absolute certainty that God is real and that he is your father, and you his son/daughter and many other things.

firdaus agrees, saying:

Quote:
That was a very beautiful description, and I agree with your view. True faith is a gift from God...

Fact is, if one "wholeheartedly and persistently" chooses to accept Zeus -- Zeus will eventually "reveal" himself to that person.

Both Derevon and Firdaus cover their tracks by noting that "faith" ultimately plays a part in this supposed "knowledge" of God -- or as Derevon puts it "knowing with absolute certainty."

I would ask this of both Derevon and Firdaus:

I recognize, as you both do, that it appears one cannot prove that God exists.

But can either of you prove that you are not delusional about God confirming Its existence?

How do you know you are not being delusional?

It's not only about God revealing himself, it also transforms a person entirely. It's like to be born anew. I perceive acts of goodness now in ways that I did not do before, for example if I see a person commit a truly altruistic act of goodness against a fellow human being it profoundly touches me and I can feel the higher truth of such an act; that by receiving this person you are indeed receiving God himself. This was just an example of how things have changed for me.

The fact that these changes also are in perfect accord with the teachings of Jesus should also strengthen the credibility. I've come to perceive the truth of many things which Jesus said through own religious experience.

I understand how this faith I am talking about must seem utterly incomprehensible to those who have not experienced it, but I can assure you that it's perfectly real, and nothing like mere belief. I'm sure it would be possible to persuade oneself into believing stupid things, but still, these beliefs would be nothing like the faith I'm attempting to describe.

I note that you did not answer the question.

Allow me to repeat it:

How do you know you are not deluding yourself?

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Derevon wrote:

cicerone imposter wrote:
Derevon, Who is god? Can you please describe him/her/it? What are his/her/it's physical features? What other thing besides music does god create/control/share with us humans?

Below I have tried to convey how I perceive God:

God is the first cause, the supreme being and the infinite upholder. But most importantly, God is our Father, and we are his sons/daughters.

God is eternal and transcends time and space. God is complete in all aspects of perfection; incapable of evil and error; infinite in wisdom, goodness and love; omniscient, omnipotent and omnipresent.

God's love for each and every one of his children is infinite; limited only by our own capacity to receive it. The better we come to know God the more we will perceive of his love and the more we will love him in return. The love I am referring to is nothing like any physical (chemical) kind of love, nor is it mere affection. This love is of a totally different nature and is from God himself.

God is goodness, beauty and truth. Through these three qualities we can better understand God. When a person has true faith these three will affect him/her in a very profound kind of way, touching the innermost depths of his/her heart.

Egad! You really are hooked.

But these are some interesting guesses -- even if they don't stack up very well with the information we have about the gods that are most common these days.

By any chance -- is the "God" you reference -- the god described in the Bible?

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How are RELIGION, SPIRITUAlITY and PHILOSOPHY different?

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