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Worldwide poll: Vast majority say capitalism not working

 
 
Francis
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Nov, 2009 02:20 pm
George wrote:
I suspect we both believe it is the true believers, the obsessive inflictors of their ideas for the perfection of humanity, who have created most of the folly and suffering in the world.

I acknowledge your flashes of insight, George..
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Nov, 2009 02:24 pm
@georgeob1,
georgeob1 wrote:
Freedom and re-creation are always necessary.


The freedom of recreation is part of our labour laws (and constitution): minimum by law is 24 working days, de-facto everyone gets 30 working by tarif (plus various special holidays and Sunday/public holidays - which aren't by definition for "recreation", though). Wink
0 Replies
 
panzade
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Nov, 2009 02:54 pm
@georgeob1,
Quote:



Ionus wrote:

Most of the developed world would be more Free Social Market rather than US style Capitalist wouldnt it ?

Walter wrote

I don't know, but certainly many European countries adopted the past-WWII German 'invention' social market economy ("Soziale Marktwirtschaft").

George wrote

And they all shared a common legacy of war, destruction and, in many cases, highly destructive totalitarian attempts at the reformation of human affairs. Not exactly a model for the rest of the world.


The reason I say your reply was clumsy george, is that it had nothing to do with Walters statement.
It was sort of an Orwellian "Four legs gooood, two legs baaaaad".
On the contrary. The German market system has been much studied and admired all over the world.
0 Replies
 
High Seas
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Nov, 2009 03:10 pm
@realjohnboy,
realjohnboy wrote:
...........Despite President Reagan's highly quoted demand "Tear down this wall..." President Bush and particularly British PM Thatcher actually tried to slow down the process, fearful of what a combined and independent Germany with a strong Mark might become.

You have confused French President Francois Mitterand with President George H.W. Bush; the latter supported unequivocally and unconditionally Chancellor Kohl's efforts to bring about German unification. Even talked Gorbachev into supporting it - against strong objections from both Mitterand and Thatcher, not to mention countless German leftists of both soon-to-be ex-East and ex-West. Btw, you probably made an honest mistake in conflating the two men (as, possibly, did Panzade in following your lead), but I want to ask Walter (who certainly reads carefully all posts and equally certainly knows the facts) WHY he didn't correct that glaring error?! Question also addressed to FBaezer.
panzade
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Nov, 2009 03:20 pm
@High Seas,
Quote:
(as, possibly, did Panzade in following your lead),


I only noted that I enjoyed the program we both listened to.
And I am ready for your edification.

Ever since the end of WWI, American diplomacy has moved towards a strong and unified Germany to buffer the Bolshevik menace.
Excepting of course those 4 pesky years of WWII.

France on the other hand has always hoped to keep Germany weak in order to avoid a fourth invasion.
I believe Bush would have been in the unified Germany camp.
High Seas
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Nov, 2009 03:38 pm
@panzade,
panzade wrote:

Quote:
(as, possibly, did Panzade in following your lead),


I only noted that I enjoyed the program we both listened to.
And I am ready for your edification.

Ever since the end of WWI, American diplomacy has moved towards a strong and unified Germany to buffer the Bolshevik menace.
Excepting of course those 4 pesky years of WWII.

France on the other hand has always hoped to keep Germany weak in order to avoid a fourth invasion.
I believe Bush would have been in the unified Germany camp.


Thanks, Panzade - didn't mean to attribute bad faith to you. You're right about George HW Bush supporting German unification, and that it has been a fundamental interest of the US at least since Kennan's "long telegram". As to the years of WWII, Germany wasn't divided, but even then some far-seeing folks (Patton among them) saw a strong Germany as the only effective barrier between Russia and the Atlantic. You are however incorrect in suggesting that France was invaded by Germany "four" times - only in the 19th century, France invaded Germany twice, once under Napoleon and twice (in 1870) under his eventual successor, Napoleon III.

Francis may correct what follows, but I attribute the widespread misconception that Germany always invaded France to the superb PR skills of French diplomacy, whereas the hapless Germans lack PR, marketing, and diplomatic skills to such an extent that they have to use French and English words for all related concepts - there being none in the German language Smile
panzade
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Nov, 2009 03:42 pm
@High Seas,
Quote:
invaded by Germany "four" times


Actually what I said was that the germane invasions were 1870. 1914 and 1940 and France was hoping to avoid a "fourth"
High Seas
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Nov, 2009 03:43 pm
@panzade,
Sorry, that is incorrect - in 1870 France invaded Germany when an army led by Napoleon III crossed the Rhine.
panzade
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Nov, 2009 03:53 pm
@High Seas,
Quote:
On July 19, 1870, France declared war on Prussia. The south German states, in fulfillment of their treaties with Prussia, immediately joined King William in a common front against France.

The French were only able to mobilize about 200,000 troops; the Germans, however, quickly marshaled an army of about 400,000 men. All German forces were under the supreme command of William, with the great strategist Helmuth Karl Bernhard, Graf von Moltke, as his chief of staff. Three German armies drove into France, led, respectively, by General Karl Friedrich von Steinmetz, Prince Frederick Charles, and Crown Prince Frederick William, later Frederick III of Prussia and emperor of Germany.


I'll await your acceptance of my interpretation.
Francis
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Nov, 2009 03:56 pm
HS wrote:
Francis may correct what follows, but I attribute the widespread misconception that Germany always invaded France to the superb PR skills of French diplomacy,


The truth is that the Germans, rustic as they are, always desired to live in a sophisticated, debonair, appetizing, well gifted country as ours.

They never ceased trying to come here and settle.

They even invented the saying: Gl├╝cklich wie Gott in Frankreich!
Twisted Evil Twisted Evil
High Seas
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Nov, 2009 03:56 pm
@panzade,
The opening sentence in your post tells the story - no interpretation is needed, facts aren't in dispute Smile
http://www.cheminsdememoire.gouv.fr/page/affichepage.php?idLang=en&idPage=84
Quote:
July 19th in 1870 the French empire declares war to the Prussian kingdom. Napoleon III leads the army in July 28th in Metz. August 2nd in Mayence, William the 1st takes command of his troops to which the allied German troops will join.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Nov, 2009 03:57 pm
@High Seas,
High Seas wrote:

panzade wrote:
As to the years of WWII, Germany wasn't divided, but even then some far-seeing folks (Patton among them) saw a strong Germany as the only effective barrier between Russia and the Atlantic.


In Potsdam, in the Cecilienhof, you can see a lot of original documents from the conference which was held there in July-August 1945.
The reason that Germany wasn't divided in multiple small and smallest pieces as suggested by some Americans was ... simply money reason (for the US and England, since they feared that then their taxpayers had to feed us Germans [it's all there, High Seas, visible and readable!] while the USSR wanted to get as much as possible in reparations).
High Seas
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Nov, 2009 03:59 pm
@panzade,
panzade wrote:

Graf von Moltke, ....

He was born "von Moltke", but was addressed as "Baron" until he was elevated to "Graf" following the overwhelming German victory at Sedan. Btw, when using "Graf" you don't follow it with "von", it's one of those quirks in titles Smile
High Seas
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Nov, 2009 04:01 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
Nah, nonsense! Secretary Morgenthau (mostly because he was of jewish ancestry) actually wanted to turn all of Germany into a green-field operation, not cantonize it. Fortunately others had greater strategic vision and prevailed.
0 Replies
 
panzade
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Nov, 2009 04:03 pm
@High Seas,
whatever. I quoted a source you ninny! Very Happy
High Seas
 
  0  
Reply Tue 10 Nov, 2009 04:05 pm
@Francis,
All things considered they usually follow their national poet to the land where those Zitronen bloom, but the guys at that destination haven't shown much interest in warfare since they lost their own (and only one ever) thousand-year-Reich Smile
0 Replies
 
High Seas
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Nov, 2009 04:06 pm
@panzade,
panzade wrote:

whatever. I quoted a source you ninny! Very Happy


LOL Panzade, I thought you had written this! You never did post a link. At any rate you now know your source to be no good with German titles Smile
panzade
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Nov, 2009 04:51 pm
@High Seas,
Generally, If I post QUOTE, it is not my writing.

I think it was a wiki page

good to see you again HS Smile
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Nov, 2009 05:11 pm
@Francis,
It all started with the Sacramenta Argentariae aka serments de Strasbourg aka Stra├čburger Eide ...
High Seas
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 Nov, 2009 01:45 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
.... and it will end when you answer my question?! It was 2 weeks ago, on this page: http://able2know.org/topic/138175-3#post-3810834
0 Replies
 
 

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