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Worldwide poll: Vast majority say capitalism not working

 
 
dadpad
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Nov, 2009 02:00 am
excessive greed is what makes capitalism NOT work. If excessive greed could be regulated most of the problems would go away.
Conversly, it is in fact greed (ambition?) that make capitalism work.
Ionus
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Nov, 2009 03:03 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Quote:
most never have seen/expeienced the US-style capitalism: we -still- have the Free Social Market
Most of the developed world would be more Free Social Market rather than US style Capitalist wouldnt it ?
Ionus
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Nov, 2009 03:04 am
@dadpad,
And Communism killed greed. Oh, for a Yellow Brick Road....
0 Replies
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Nov, 2009 03:47 am
@panzade,
panzade wrote:

Oh, they quibble...should we count the Gulags? How about those that were tortured and died
after they were released, from their wounds? Does starvation count?
How about 20,000 Polish officers massacred in one day in the Katyn forest?
The day the Soviet Union ceased to exist, I let out a long sigh...
I well remember that day.
Late on Christmas Eve, I took a red eye back from Las Vegas,
and got home to NY the next morning.
I did so knowing that on Christmas Eve, the Russians woud tear down
the hammer & sickle commie flag on the Kremlin -- down forever, like the nazi swastika.
Communist slavery was gone from Russia.
The USSR disappeared and ended.

On Christmas Day, the Russians put up the Red White and Blue of the Russian flag.

That was the 2nd happiest day of my life.





David
0 Replies
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  2  
Reply Tue 10 Nov, 2009 04:20 am
@Foofie,
Foofie wrote:

I believe we are emphasizing the wrong syl-la-ble. It is not the economic system in question, I believe, but the fact that society has seemed to reach a point of diminishing jobs. That is not capitalism's fault, but that western societies has an under-educated work-force for the functions that may pay a wage in the future, in my opinion. I believe western society is in a transitional stage, between a day when one person's labor was essential, and a future day when a person can be valued in a yet to be known function.

The only question, in my mind, is whether until that future day arrives, will society have to turn into a welfare state?
To me, it seems very clear that the future holds radical
changes concerning economics because it is inevitable that
computers and robots will get progressively better.

As time goes by, the services that can be rendered by computers
will more and more outclass white collar workers.
Computers are not alive; hence, thay make no demands of salary,
nor promotions, nor vacations, nor pensions, nor any demands
based on social welfare legislation.

Not being alive, nor even conscious,
computers do not sue their bosses for any reason whatsoever.

The same applies as to robots and blue collar workers.

Economics is the science of the production and distribution
of scarce goods. As time passes, more efficient computers
will produce goods of progressively better quality,
less expensively and in greater profusion.
As goods proliferate and become more abundant and less scarce,
their prices will plummet; by definition, thay will become less valuable.
As this manifestation becomes more ubiquitous,
the science of of the production and distribution
of scarce goods will become ever more obsolescent.

Human jobs that require creativity will endure the longest.


Economics, as heretofore known, will be less applicable because of diminishing scarcity.

As that becomes more and more prevalent,
we will have radically more free time,
living off of the production of non-living, non-complaining labor.

For the first time in the history of Man,
we will approach ever more closely to getting something for nothing.





David
Ionus
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Nov, 2009 05:37 am
@OmSigDAVID,
Assuming we solve energy, population and pollution problems.
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Nov, 2009 06:38 am
@Ionus,

For energy: I 'm optimistic about fusion, but not next week.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Nov, 2009 10:51 am
@Ionus,
Ionus wrote:
Most of the developed world would be more Free Social Market rather than US style Capitalist wouldnt it ?


I don't know, but certainly many European countries adopted the past-WWII German 'invention' social market economy ("Soziale Marktwirtschaft").
panzade
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Nov, 2009 11:31 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Erhard had a brilliant concept Walter.
How does Soziale Marktwirtschaft differ from the American system. I am in your debt for a reply.
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Nov, 2009 11:46 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter Hinteler wrote:

Ionus wrote:
Most of the developed world would be more Free Social Market rather than US style Capitalist wouldnt it ?


I don't know, but certainly many European countries adopted the past-WWII German 'invention' social market economy ("Soziale Marktwirtschaft").


And they all shared a common legacy of war, destruction and, in many cases, highly destructive totalitarian attempts at the reformation of human affairs. Not exactly a model for the rest of the world.
Francis
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Nov, 2009 12:09 pm
George wrote:
Not exactly a model for the rest of the world.


According to you, what model would exactly suit the rest of the world?
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Nov, 2009 12:42 pm
@georgeob1,
georgeob1 wrote:

And they all shared a common legacy of war, destruction and, in many cases, highly destructive totalitarian attempts at the reformation of human affairs.


Really? I mean just because Europian countries are part of Europe doesn't mean such per defitionem.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Nov, 2009 12:52 pm
@panzade,
Certainly some may give a different definition - but in my personal view,
- pension insurance, health care and unemployment insurance are a very important point,
as are
- "the rights to form associations to safeguard and improve working and economic conditions" (Article 9,1 Basic Law) which means tariff autonomy, statutory framework for the rights of employees at their place of work and other labour laws,
and for instance
- the anti-trust code, laws against the abuse of market power.
panzade
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Nov, 2009 01:48 pm
@georgeob1,
Quote:
And they all shared a common legacy of war, destruction and, in many cases, highly destructive totalitarian attempts at the reformation of human affairs.


What Walter describes was formatted after the war and it's implementation was made easier by the total destruction of the former economic system.

You're point was unusually clumsy george...I was surprised.
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Nov, 2009 01:50 pm
@Francis,
Francis wrote:

George wrote:
Not exactly a model for the rest of the world.


According to you, what model would exactly suit the rest of the world?


Not for me to say. I wouldn't presume to propose solutions for others, though history does provide us all of some rather pointed illustrations of thiongs to be avoided.

However, noting European exceptionalism doesn't require much in the way of the understanding of history either.
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Nov, 2009 01:55 pm
@panzade,
panzade wrote:


What Walter describes was formatted after the war and it's implementation was made easier by the total destruction of the former economic system.

You're point was unusually clumsy george...I was surprised.


I don't argue or doubt that the war made the subsequent transformation more acceptable or even desirable to most Europeans. However it is also possible, indeed likely, that the war and what preceeded it created some conditions that were , and still are, unique to Europe.

The point may be clumsy, but it is nonetheless valid.
Francis
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Nov, 2009 01:55 pm
@georgeob1,
So, you are useless in helping me to reinvent the world?
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Nov, 2009 01:58 pm
@Francis,
Francis wrote:

So, you are useless in helping me to reinvent the world?


Yes, as useless as you, Francis. I suspect we both believe it is the true believers, the obsessive inflictors of their ideas for the perfection of humanity, who have created most of the folly and suffering in the world. In comparison ordinary human greed and avarice are benign influences.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Nov, 2009 02:05 pm
@georgeob1,
georgeob1 wrote:
However it is also possible, indeed likely, that the war and what preceeded it created some conditions that were , and still are, unique to Europe.


That is, indeed, not likely at all: the idea of what later became the "social market economy" is based on Alexander Rüstow's neo-liberalism. And that's a concept from pre-WWII.
Rüstow's theories, by the way, originated from the Ordoliberalism of Walter Eucken, Franz Böhm, Hans Grossmann-Doerth and Leonhard Miksch from the earliest 1930's.
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Nov, 2009 02:10 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter Hinteler wrote:

Certainly some may give a different definition - but in my personal view,
- pension insurance, health care and unemployment insurance are a very important point,
as are
- "the rights to form associations to safeguard and improve working and economic conditions" (Article 9,1 Basic Law) which means tariff autonomy, statutory framework for the rights of employees at their place of work and other labour laws,
and for instance
- the anti-trust code, laws against the abuse of market power.


Noble, laudable goals all , Walter. However the growing European brueaucracy that governs them will very likely yield adverse side effects nearly equivalent to the "abuses of market power" it governs.

All "solutions" are temporary. The world is far more complex than our relatively feeble political constructs. Freedom and re-creation are always necessary.
 

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