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At least seven killed in shooting at Fort Hood, Tex.

 
 
Eorl
 
  1  
Reply Mon 9 Nov, 2009 06:25 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Finn dAbuzz wrote:


But no, the fact that he's a Muslim has no bearing on this tragedy. It was pre-post traumatic distress disorder or projected PTTD.



I think it's quite likely being a Muslim had a lot to do with it, PTSD notwithstanding. He's likely to tell us soon what he thinks his motivations were. I suspect he's seen his situation as one in which he has been forced to kill people, and he's had to decide who he "is" first and foremost, Muslim or American.
msolga
 
  4  
Reply Mon 9 Nov, 2009 06:26 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Quote:
War creates people like Hasan ....


Quote:
...By the end of last summer, the Army was reporting the highest tallies of soldier suicides since accurate record-keeping began. We’re getting saturation media coverage of Thursday’s outburst of horror at Fort Hood, but we haven’t heard a lot about the scores of suicides at that same base " the highest of any U.S. military installation " since the invasion of Iraq in 2003.

If we’re going to fight wars as a nation, then we need to draw our warriors from a wider swath of the population and give them the full and complete support that they need and deserve. We’ll no doubt be analyzing the twisted psychological state of Nidal Malik Hasan every which way from sundown. But we’ll continue to give short shrift to the daily struggles and frequent horrors of the honorable men and women who have taken on the thankless task of fighting our wars.

This is not just shameful, it’s unsustainable.


http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/07/opinion/07herbert.html?_r=1
Ionus
 
  3  
Reply Mon 9 Nov, 2009 06:41 pm
@msolga,
Quote:
the scores of suicides
A cynical hard arse like me had a lump in my throat as I read that. I knew very well several men and women who have suicided due to service reasons. For every suicide that can be directly attributed to service, there are many times the number that are badly damaged due to service and try to soldier on, only to fall at a later date, sometimes years after leaving the Army, having never been able to fit back into their own lives again.
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Mon 9 Nov, 2009 06:42 pm
@msolga,
From a long article (from the Guardian) but, I think, well worth a read ...

Quote:
...But there are some who say Fort Hood has always had a dark side. They say that something like last week's tragedy was bound to happen in the heart of a military machine that is sending tens of thousands of soldiers to and from two separate, bloody and seemingly never-ending wars.

In fact, death has never been a stranger here. When most soldiers are veterans, serving one, two or more terms in combat, no one has been untouched by conflict. They have all lost friends, loved ones and comrades already. The spectre of PTSD haunts the darker corners of Fort Hood. Though the army insists it is combating PTSD and publicly urges its soldiers to admit their problems, the issue is not straightforward. Army culture is still gung-ho and militant, weakness is looked down upon and teasing is part of everyday life. Hasan had reportedly suffered anti-Muslim bullying on the base from soldiers returning from Iraq and Afghanistan. But the US military is stretched by its combat commitments and every soldier discharged with PTSD is another one who cannot return to fight. No wonder that some say the issue is still being pushed under the carpet, denied and hidden away.


http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/nov/08/fort-hood-shootings-aftermath
0 Replies
 
panzade
 
  1  
Reply Mon 9 Nov, 2009 06:49 pm
@Ionus,
Quote:
For every suicide that can be directly attributed to service, there are many times the number that are badly damaged due to service and try to soldier on, only to fall at a later date, sometimes years after leaving the Army, having never been able to fit back into their own lives again.

well said. The hidden cost is what saddens me.
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Mon 9 Nov, 2009 07:15 pm
@panzade,
It more than saddens me. Soldiers are not machines, they are human beings & the inevitable fall-out from the seemingly endless tours of duty need to be urgently addressed. Surely we've learned enough from the terrible ongoing struggles of the Vietnam vets & their families? And that was just one war.
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Mon 9 Nov, 2009 10:00 pm
@msolga,
We could, of course, question why the US & its allies have been engaged in continuous war since 2003, which has necessitated the many tours of duty by troops of the countries involved. We could ask what exactly has been achieved by 6 years of war & if the cost has been worth it. But those questions are being explored on other threads on this site. But I do wonder if the troops at the frontline ask themselves the same questions many of us are asking, & come to similar conclusions.
snood
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Nov, 2009 05:45 am
@msolga,
Sad to say (or maybe its much better this way), but I don't think there aren't an awful lot of very critical thinkers who make their living in combat arms jobs. So I would bet the answer to your musing is "No, they don't wonder about it."
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Nov, 2009 05:52 am
@snood,
That is sad, if it's true, snood.

But they would surely reflect on their combat experiences & the effects on their well being?
0 Replies
 
Ionus
 
  2  
Reply Tue 10 Nov, 2009 06:04 am
@msolga,
Since 1941 till the start of 2010, the US has been involved in hot wars 38% of the time and the cold war for 67%. For what ? For the free world ? If we put Australia at one end of the scale and France at the other, where do most countires fit ? I am baffled as to what it was about. It has cost tens of thousands of US lives and 10 times that number wounded PHYSICALLY, and millions killed in foriegn countries. I think any cost analysis would ask where is the return ? Who benefited and by how much ?
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Nov, 2009 06:12 am
@Ionus,
Well, the arms industry must be doing very nicely indeed out of constant warfare.

dadpad
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Nov, 2009 06:15 am
@msolga,
msolga wrote:

Well, the arms industry must be doing very nicely indeed out of constant warfare.


there is the return. arms manufacture is a gazillion dollar business for the US. (and other countries). Imagine the unemployment if munitions factories closed down tommorrow.
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Nov, 2009 06:19 am
@dadpad,
But imagine what the US government (say nothing of ours & other governments) could do with those billions instead!
0 Replies
 
Ionus
 
  3  
Reply Tue 10 Nov, 2009 06:22 am
@snood,
I spent most of my 24 years in Arms Units and I never wondered about a thing. I wanted to do the best I could and make sure no-one I was responsible for died. As soon as I left, I havent stopped asking what the hell did I do it for...
It was like taking the pressure off and the cake collapsed. The units I served with no longer remember me..they are all new. The civy world is at the other end of the galaxy - God knows how you get there, and God knows what it is. So I live in a very narrow world and raise my 5 children left me by my runaway ex-wife. Being away from home on service kills a lot of marriages. It seems all too often another friend dies, and I cant even bring myself to go to their funeral. For the ones that have suicided, I cant but feel I failed them. For the ones that have died of strange and rare diseases, I am simply scared I am next and my children will be alone. The ones that are healthy think I am a psycho and wont talk to me. What do I wonder about ? I always thank God I was not stupid enought to have a gun in the house. But mostly I wonder how to make it through one day at a time. I dont have to wonder what went through that Major's mind.
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Nov, 2009 06:01 pm
@Eorl,
Eorl you're not lumping all Muslims together are you?

Or is it all members of the military?

No one who is in the military and is deployed to Iraq or Afghanistan is being forced to kill anyone, and as far as Hasan goes, to my knowledge there are no Fighting Shrinks in the US Army. He was not going to see combat, let alone be forced to kill anyone.

Even assuming he had a remotely credible notion that he might be in a position where he might have to shoot and kill a fellow Muslim, a decision to embrace an identity of Muslim over American doesn't rationally lead to going on a murderous rampage at Ft Hood.

Still lots to learn, but no credible indication of his being so absolutely crazy that he saw no choice but to engage in a suicidal rampage rather than be forced to kill Muslims as an Army shrink "treating" the poor sods who actually are killing people.

Eorl
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Nov, 2009 08:04 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
No.

My guesses about his motivation have nothing to do with lumping anything.
Whether he actually expected to kill on arrival doesn't have to factor into what he felt, especially if PTSD was involved.

I'll add this as new information to back up my theory that being a muslim may well have had something to do with it...
Quote:

The alleged gunman, Major Hasan, had warned fellow officers of the threat posed by Muslim troops in the US military who did not want to fight wars in Muslim countries.

In a paper he presented to senior military doctors two years ago, he warned in order to avoid adverse events, Muslim troops should be discharged as conscientious objectors rather than forced to fight wars in Muslim countries.

source: http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009/11/11/2739279.htm

Your outright claim that being a Muslim had nothing to do with it seems premature at best.
mushypancakes
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Nov, 2009 11:15 pm

I saw some of the memorial service today and will admit, as hard as I tried not to, it had me shedding tears.
I thought it was very nice to see the pres speaking about each individual a little bit. It was then that it started to hit me how very sad it is.

But it was the calling of role call that had me a mess. I have the honour of being a small part in a Remembrance Day service again this year and so we had done some practice today. All of that combined with seeing this service on CNN had me a right mess.

I love using my free speech. I have tremendous respect though for those who have served. I think it's important to give them the due respect and think about it once in a while.

So, I just wanted to write that here and put in my little two cents. I'm not going to get caught up on trying to analyze this event or even to claim I understand much of it nor am informed.

I just know some people died needlessly and that is so sad. It's a loss no matter who you are when anyone dies, it scares me to think of the kind of person I could become if I stop remembering that.

0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Nov, 2009 05:39 pm
@Eorl,
Eorl

I was being "ironic" or sarcastic (depending on your point of view). I agree completely that his being a Muslim "had something to do with it. In fact, if we stipulate that all murderous terrorists are mad men and women, his being a Muslim had everything to do with it.

The psycho-babble concerning PTSD being spread about by liberal media is outrageous.

He is an Islamist as opposed to a follower of Islam. He is a terrorist, killing for a cause, not some poor stressed out schmuck.

farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Nov, 2009 05:50 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
As we hear the news unfold, the bulk of what is appearing as evidence strongly suggests his ties to terrorist groups and radical clergy. There seems to be a growing pile of circumstantial stuff that makes his case for PTSD more than preposterous. THey have enough forensic data to fry him (hes on a couple of security cameras) and there are plenty of eyewitnesses to the events.
His only value to us bwfore we exact our revenge based justice, is to use him as a study subject to try to understand what goes on in the minds of these people who kill for their religion.
After we exhaust his use to us, Ill hit the switch on ole sparky.
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Nov, 2009 06:02 pm
@farmerman,
Quote:
His only value to us bwfore we exact our revenge based justice, is to use him as a study subject to try to understand what goes on in the minds of these people who kill for their religion.


that is not fair to Islam...this guy was at his core not suitable for the role of warrior. His being where he did not belong caused him to break up, to look for excuses for his pain. He latched on to Islam, used it to rationalize his irrational beliefs and behaviours, but Islam itself was an innocent bystander. This is a guy who had a great deal of difficulty getting over the death of his pet BIRD for cripes sake!! This outbreak of murder happened because A guy with psychiatric problems was neither helped nor drummed out of the force. With the way the evidence is going I may need to reconsider if the Army was at some fault for not finding out his unsuitability for the force, if the Army did not consider the possibility maybe because they desperately wanted to recruit and keep Muslims in the force, or because they were unable to see clearly his problems because of PC corruption of evaluation processes.
 

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