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At least seven killed in shooting at Fort Hood, Tex.

 
 
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Nov, 2009 06:04 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Most of the references to PSTD I've read have been in regard to troops & the many tours of duty required of them since 1993. Not specifically about him.

Quote:
He is an Islamist as opposed to a follower of Islam. He is a terrorist, killing for a cause, not some poor stressed out schmuck


I don't doubt he was stressed at the prospect of being sent to Afghanistan, but am in no position to know whether this prompted his actions or not. I've come across the reports of his internet activities on Muslim sites, but I thought the jury was still out on his motives for the shootings?

farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Nov, 2009 07:31 pm
@hawkeye10,
Quote:
that is not fair to Islam...this guy was at his core not suitable for the role of warrior. His being where he did not belong caused him to break up, to look for excuses for his pain. He latched on to Islam, used it to rationalize his irrational beliefs and behaviours, but Islam itself was an innocent bystander.

RELAX, were not gonna execute Islam, just this guy. Id agree that Islam was an Innocent bystander , but he wasnt.
Our punishment is on him.
0 Replies
 
Ionus
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Nov, 2009 07:50 pm
People who have PTSD do not become murderers. When they put a gun to their heads they are not taking a human life, they are using a pain killer.It is irrelevant if he had PTSD.

People who see combat do not become murderers. They shed a tear when we remember the fallen. It is irrelevant what combat he had seen or was about to see, or has seen through the recollection of others.

To be insane and not know you are killing someone is extremely rare. Most insane people who murder know they are taking a human life. Their insanity is irrelevant. A woman murders a husband and claims she was being bashed - she gets off on insanity. A guy who has voices in his head saying all the time he must drink the bags full of blood walking around him gets the death penalty.

It doesnt matter if he had PTSD or PMT. It doesnt matter if he was Muslim or Christian, a psychiatrist or a psychotic, in the American Army or the Salvation Army, if he knew he was taking human life then...

BURN, BABY, BURN

And farmerman, I cant believe you shotgunned it...unfair...
Quote:
After we exhaust his use to us, Ill hit the switch on ole sparky.
Arm wrestle...best of two out of three
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Nov, 2009 06:20 pm
@msolga,
Msolga - I don't know what you have been reading but a whole lot has been written about how stressed this guy was pending his deployment, and if it wasn't explicitly claimed, it sure was implied that the "horrors" he heard about from his patients had pushed him over the edge.

I recently read that he wasn't even treating returning vets, but whether or not that is accurate, it is pretty obvious that the MSM (read liberal media) with very little in the way of facts to support it, jumped on their familiar train: American soldiers are psych-damaged victims who cannot be expected to return to normal lives after their service is over. They took it the extra step by suggesting that Hasan was, somehow, psychicly infected by the damaged dupes he treated, and if that wasn't enough they threw in their old standby: Persecution made him do it. On day one the NY Times was reporting that he had suffered from persecution at the hands of his fellow servicemen by virtue of the fact that he was a Muslim. Their reliable source for this information? A couple of his family members.

Clearly, the MSM has attempted to steer the story away from his murderous rampage being motivated by his religious beliefs.

Now that the evidence continues to mount in proving he acted as an Islamist, the MSM has simply chosen not to cover the story anymore.

Who led the way in uncovering evidence of his Islamist ties? The UK press!

The only "jury" considering his motivation at this point is the public, and they don't have an opportunity to deliver a formal verdict, but if they did, as respects whether or not he was motivated by his religious beliefs, they would pronounce him guilty as charged.
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Nov, 2009 06:37 pm
@farmerman,
I don't see any value in his being a subject of an exploration into what makes a terrorist tick, and as long as he isn't ever allowed another day of freedom, I don't really care what happens to him. If the families of his victims want to see him executed, then I'm in favor of his being executed.

Unless "understanding" your enemy can help you defeat them, there is no point to it.

Group and lone wolf terrorist attacks are either happening or being discovered at a rate of once every four months since 9/11.

Hasan was not a one-off, he was part of a predictable pattern.

One 9/11 apparently wasn't enough, and 43 dead or wounded at Fort Hood isn't horrific enough.
Ceili
 
  2  
Reply Thu 12 Nov, 2009 06:48 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Aside from his religion, what is the difference between him and all the others that have gone postal?
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Nov, 2009 07:24 pm
Quote:
Hasan "was not fit to be in the military, let alone in the mental health profession," this classmate told CNN. "No one in class would ever have referred a patient to him or trusted him with anything."

http://www.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/11/12/texas.fort.hood.hasan/index.html

Yep, this is what I have said from the beginning.
0 Replies
 
msolga
 
  2  
Reply Fri 13 Nov, 2009 12:57 am
@Finn dAbuzz,
Quote:
Msolga - I don't know what you have been reading but a whole lot has been written about how stressed this guy was pending his deployment, and if it wasn't explicitly claimed, it sure was implied that the "horrors" he heard about from his patients had pushed him over the edge.


I've done quite a bit of reading on this subject, Finn. And I've posted extracts from two of the articles I've read to this thread. (Perhaps you missed them.):

Stress Beyond Belief, about the prevalence of PTSD in serving US troops, as a result of multiple tours of duty. - NYT.

And Grief and Pain at Forth Worth After Bitter betrayal of Masss Shooting from the Gauardian.

I'm by no means an expert in the field of mental health, but I think you're confusing Major Hasan's widely reported "stress", at the prospect of being posted to Afghanistan, with the PTSD (post traumatic stress disorder) suffered by US troops after constant tours of duty Iraq & Afghanistan.

Ionus
 
  2  
Reply Fri 13 Nov, 2009 01:50 am
@Ceili,
Good point Ceili. A murderer is a murderer. To call him anything else is to rob of their dignity decent people who never harm anyone despite their problems.
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Nov, 2009 12:38 pm
@msolga,
msolga wrote:

Quote:
Msolga - I don't know what you have been reading but a whole lot has been written about how stressed this guy was pending his deployment, and if it wasn't explicitly claimed, it sure was implied that the "horrors" he heard about from his patients had pushed him over the edge.


I've done quite a bit of reading on this subject, Finn. And I've posted extracts from two of the articles I've read to this thread. (Perhaps you missed them.):

Stress Beyond Belief, about the prevalence of PTSD in serving US troops, as a result of multiple tours of duty. - NYT.

And Grief and Pain at Forth Worth After Bitter betrayal of Masss Shooting from the Gauardian.

I'm by no means an expert in the field of mental health, but I think you're confusing Major Hasan's widely reported "stress", at the prospect of being posted to Afghanistan, with the PTSD (post traumatic stress disorder) suffered by US troops after constant tours of duty Iraq & Afghanistan.




I'm not at all confusing Hasan's "stress" with PTSD. My very point is that the liberal media has been, and for the purpose of steering the issue away from his Islamist beliefs.

I've no doubt that you are well read on the subject of PTSD, but you seem to have missed, at least, the sub-text of the liberal media's reporting.
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Nov, 2009 12:48 pm
@Ceili,
Ceili wrote:

Aside from his religion, what is the difference between him and all the others that have gone postal?


What point are you trying to make here?

That he was simly a nut who happened to be a Muslim?

Are you aware of any of the facts surrounding this matter?
Ceili
 
  2  
Reply Fri 13 Nov, 2009 01:41 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Yes I am. However, each time a killer goes on a rampage at his work place or school, there are always issues with what they believe.
So, I'll ask it again...
Aside from his religion what makes him any different than others that have gone postal? They are all insane on some level, they all believe they have been persecuted on some level and they all choose violence against the people who are innocents. It's terrible but it doesn't necessarily make them terrorists, in the classic sense.
Just indiscriminate killers.........
OmSigDAVID
 
  0  
Reply Fri 13 Nov, 2009 01:52 pm

What 'd do some actual GOOD is encouraging the victims to arm themselves defensively
beforehand so thay can fight back if necessary.





David
snood
 
  2  
Reply Fri 13 Nov, 2009 02:07 pm
@OmSigDAVID,
OmSigDAVID wrote:


What 'd do some actual GOOD is encouraging the victims to arm themselves defensively
beforehand so thay can fight back if necessary.





David


Just how exactly would you pull that off, on a military base with all the firearm useage strictly regulated? Does the reality of how things actually are on a case-by-case ever intrude into your perfect black and white "just give 'em all guns" mantra?
DrewDad
 
  0  
Reply Fri 13 Nov, 2009 02:53 pm
@snood,
snood wrote:
Does the reality of how things actually are on a case-by-case ever intrude into your perfect black and white "just give 'em all guns" mantra?

I've asked him this question in the past.

The answer is "no".
0 Replies
 
engineer
 
  3  
Reply Fri 13 Nov, 2009 03:20 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Finn dAbuzz wrote:

I'm not at all confusing Hasan's "stress" with PTSD. My very point is that the liberal media has been, and for the purpose of steering the issue away from his Islamist beliefs.

I've no doubt that you are well read on the subject of PTSD, but you seem to have missed, at least, the sub-text of the liberal media's reporting.

I think the media has been all over his religious beliefs. I don't see where you say they are steering clear of it. They've discussed his writings, his presentation in the Army where he discussed the dangers of ordering Muslims to fight other Muslims, how he was looking for a religious wife, etc. Those in the liberal media also reported how Hasan got breaks in the Army because of his religion and an atmosphere of political correctness. Are you concerned that they are also pointing out that he was loner who was unlucky in love, felt persecuted and marginalized, kind of like the Columbine killers? It seems like a pretty balanced picture is emerging. Are you getting the same from the non-liberal media?
Ionus
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Nov, 2009 08:02 pm
@OmSigDAVID,
Kindergartens have been attacked. Do we arm teachers ? How old will you have to be to have a fire arm ? If people settle arguments with punches, wont they then use guns ? What if there are many people who dont like YOU ? If they all come a-gunnin' fer ya at once pardner, will you need an M60 with explosive tip rounds ? How old will you have to be before your firearms are taken off of you ? Hell, me and you will have a shoot out. I dont like you already. Be prepared to die because I am very accurate. Or maybe I will just shoot you in the back.
djjd62
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Nov, 2009 08:06 pm
@Ionus,
in davids perfect world, every kindergartner would get a handgun on the first day of school and the gun would be removed when they could pry it from your cold dead hands
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Nov, 2009 08:33 pm
@Ceili,
Ceili wrote:

Yes I am. However, each time a killer goes on a rampage at his work place or school, there are always issues with what they believe.
So, I'll ask it again...
Aside from his religion what makes him any different than others that have gone postal? They are all insane on some level, they all believe they have been persecuted on some level and they all choose violence against the people who are innocents. It's terrible but it doesn't necessarily make them terrorists, in the classic sense.
Just indiscriminate killers.........


What is insanity?

We tend to freely toss the term around when there are incidents of violence because, in part, we cannot imagine ourselves or anyone we respect or care for committing such crimes.

These individuals must be insane to do such horrible things! They must be, because the alternative is that they are simply evil, and so many of us consider ourselves far too sophisticated to believe in any so primal a concept as evil.

That is, of course, unless the monsters prey on members of a class anointed as Sacred Victims. So when a young gay man is tied to a fence and tortured to death, his killers are monsters, not deranged and unfathomable. When an elderly black man is dragged in chains behind a truck until he dies, his killers are monsters motivated by an evil hatred and whether or not their Daddies beat them as kids, girls spurned them as pimply youths, and classmates bullied them in Junior High is totally immaterial. They are monsters.

You know what? I agree. They are monsters and they are evil. I don't care how their victims can be classified other than as innocents.

It doesn't matter if Hasan couldn't find a woman, or that he was made fun of because he is pudgy, bald or a Muslim. There are vastly more people who suffer from the rough edges of life and who do not go on killing sprees than those that do.

If he thought the people he was killing were trying to kill him, or if he thought the bullets he was firing were simply cosmetically marking them as bad guys, he would be insane.

He didn't. He knew he was killing and maiming those he was firing at and he wanted it to be so. He was very much in touch with reality. Perhaps we will never know for certain, but what do you believe his state of mind was during his rampage?

Which is more likely?

He was lost in a fog of hallucinations and disassociation, unaware of the consequence of his actions

Or

He was exultant, flooded with endorphins triggered by religious ecstasy and an overwhelming intoxication of raw power.

How can I be sure he was the latter and not the former? Just look at how he made his way to his explosion of violence.

He followed a path of Islamist extremism - jihad - to which he was emotionally and intellectually attracted.

There is far more reason to believe his rampage was a planned, intentional act, than a spontaneous and inexplicable instance of insane behavior - "going postal."

To many a Western mind, the fact that he could not have imagined that he would survive his rampage is proof of his insanity, and that might be true if anyone could prove there is no afterlife.

Believing that God will send you to Paradise by virtue of the fact that you have died killing non-believers may be ignorant, stupid and illogical, but it is not insane.

And guess what? There are far, far more people on earth who accept articles of faith than those who do not. Are they all insane?

Dismissing Hasan has a random nut case not only supports ridiculous PC notions, it makes people feel safer.

Random killers are far rarer than natural disasters, far rarer than shark attacks, far rarer than deadly disease.

If every once in a while some nut goes postal, well if you happen to be caught in the line of fire, it just bad luck, but if there are people amongst us who are deliberately seeking opportunities to murder and maim us because of organized beliefs and not chaotic brain storms, well, that's a lot scarier.

It should be.
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Nov, 2009 08:44 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Quote:
I'm not at all confusing Hasan's "stress" with PTSD. My very point is that the liberal media has been, and for the purpose of steering the issue away from his Islamist beliefs.

I've no doubt that you are well read on the subject of PTSD, but you seem to have missed, at least, the sub-text of the liberal media's reporting.



I really don't think I've come across that "sub-text" myself, Finn. Could it be your interpretation of the articles you've read?
I'm curious: which liberal media resources have you been using?
0 Replies
 
 

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