EUGENICS R GOOD: TRUE or FALSE ??

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EUGENICS R GOOD: TRUE or FALSE ??

I believe that it is good to exert control to achieve the best result,
not just leave it to chance n let the chips fall where thay may.

If this science were fully and accurately developed
woud u employ it to improve yourself and your progeny ?

I woud.

If I were a future kid whose father did not take advantage of available technology
to make me better, I 'd blame him for my consequent inferiority.

WHATAYATHINK n Y DO U THINK IT ?

David

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@OmSigDAVID,

The problem is the definition of "best result." Say your father was an engineer with no appreciation for the arts, so he programmed you to be a great analytical thinker and to improve your focus on the sciences, he made you tone deaf and color blind. Would you be thankful? Would you know any better? And what would your children look like after that? How would your line evolve when the random factor is removed?

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@OmSigDAVID,

Francis Galton was a cousin to CHarles DArwin. He coined the phrase and the resulting slippery slope of determinative eugenics has been the best we can show about how humans can be trusted to "Do the right thing".

With our growing understanding of genetics and how we can intervene to control genetic linked disease, we will, no doubt be faced with the entire issue of eugenics probably quite soon.

My concern is how we avoid the misapropriation of the technology to achieve things like "racial superiroity" or "superior intelligent babies" . AS we cull the genepool to raise the bell curve, we will probably learn that in genetic manipulation, like most other areas of artificial selection, THERE IS NO FREE LUNCH. Artificial selection in livestock (which is actually eugenics in action) we discover that supplanting a gene that enables cows to freshen (calve and lactate) sooner, also gives them a predisposition to structural diseases. We will have to continually stay one step ahead of the die in order to limit misfunctions and genetics oopses .

I dont know how we unring the bell of technology once genetic "designer mechanisms " are being wielded. I am concerned that we may not be mature enough as a species before we understand how we impact our species with the possibility of sweeping morphological changes.

WE have a few examples of the implementation of eugenics, and the results were all bad.

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@farmerman,

Quote:

My concern is how we avoid the misapropriation of the technology to achieve things like "racial superiroity" or "superior intelligent babies" . AS we cull the genepool to raise the bell curve, we will probably learn that in genetic manipulation, like most other areas of artificial selection, THERE IS NO FREE LUNCH.

And as with all bell curves, there will always be the lower end and the upper end. What then? More selective breeding? When does it stop?

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@farmerman,

Lets call it what it is rather than use a Victorian era "made up word". ITS artificial selection. Hybridization, gene manipulation, racial "Farming"

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@farmerman,

Come on effemm. Are you wobbling? Eugenics is the obvious scientific solution. People with your brains should mate with Elizabeth Taylor types. In the event of the offspring having your looks and Liz's brains it could be detected early and aborted.

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Leonardo Da Vinci

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@OmSigDAVID,

I believe that humanity will go through a period of selective breeding and genetic manipulation, but that it will be superseded by the advent of dynamic genetic manipulation available at any point during our life cycle.

Eventually eugenics will be a self-administered medical choice. We will alter our genetic structures the way we get plastic surgery.

I also expect that we will be inclined to alter our basic physiology through the use of nanotechnology which will in many cases supersede the functionality of cellular systems. Humanity is destined to evolve itself into a hybridized bio-technological race of cyborgs. And from that vantage point we will look back at simple eugenic selection as quaint.

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@rosborne979,

rosborne979 wrote:

I believe that humanity will go through a period of selective breeding and genetic manipulation, but that it will be superseded by the advent of dynamic genetic manipulation available at any point during our life cycle.

Eventually eugenics will be a self-administered medical choice. We will alter our genetic structures the way we get plastic surgery.

I also expect that we will be inclined to alter our basic physiology through the use of nanotechnology which will in many cases supersede the functionality of cellular systems. Humanity is destined to evolve itself into a hybridized bio-technological race of cyborgs. And from that vantage point we will look back at simple eugenic selection as quaint.

Very well put, Rosbourne.
I approve of human improvement.

To your mind, are these forthcoming changes good or bad ?

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@farmerman,

farmerman wrote:

Lets call it what it is rather than use a Victorian era "made up word". ITS artificial selection.
Hybridization, gene manipulation, racial "Farming"

OK, Farmer: u can be in charge of naming it,
as long as we DO it.

David

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@OmSigDAVID,

Quote:

as long as we DO it

The central question here is who will be the "we". We have seen the consequences when the "we" were the Nazi's. Presumably the future "we" will also have some sort of prior vested interest in "improving" their own quality of life which requires resources which like health-care may never be available to all. To ask whether this is "good" is somewhat vacuous.

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@fresco,

Quote:

To ask whether this is "good" is somewhat vacuous

Im stepping lightly on this issue because its fraught with all sorts of new realities that will become a mere matter of course in our future medical practices. SO, even though DAvids questions are somewhat naive, they are something that we will have to deal with even with the most benign medical ethics.

Continued artificial selection , especially driven by gene therapies will expose unintended consequences so that mechanical interventions that ros has speculated on may be the normal daily med procedures. EIther we will use "designer genetics" or else mechanical interventions to maintain even the most serious illness today, into a chronic state where it can be managed until the next generation when the gene therapy will wipe out the disease's tracks. By that means, I can see entire industries that are either intervention or genetics based being at cross purposes to each other.(A pancreatic insulin delivery nano tech system will be at cross purposes to genetic intervention to remove insulin response fromthe genome)
However, I dont think its gonna be cheap. People with say TEy Sachs, may have available gene therapy on a case by case basis until the recessive nature of the gene combination is gradually removed . Either that or a single generational intervention of gene therapy will remove the entire syndrome. HOWEVER, when the Tey Sachs link is removed, so are two or three BENEFICIAL variants taken out of the genetic structure.
SO many genes are multifunctional . So we will remnove the TAy Sachs and increase the Chrones disease or dietary allergies

HOWEWVER, weve not even approached HOW we , as a civilization,can control the implementation of our abilities to create designer babies and reduce the culling of our own genetic diversity which will put us to major risk by turning our species into a bunch of farm animals , like turkeys, where we are responsive only to complex interventions and mechanical devices .I fear that, after weve become a race of turkeys should any serious environmental change occur, we could be "Bottlenecked" and wiped out by our own lack of diversity.

NATURE ALWAYS BATS LAST.

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@fresco,

What do you expect fresco? Vacuity is a given.

The application of eugenics necessarily requires a caste system and the "we" will be the alpha plus brigade like ros and Dave. The rest will be specialised creatures each designed to cater eagerly for one or other of their needs such as the ability to look up to alpha plusses with reverent awe no matter how ridiculous they get. In fact ridiculousness will become an anachronism.

The Ceilis of the future will have all the advantages Ceili has now and none of the disadvantages and thus the alpha plusses would degenerate into lazy, idle good-for-nothing knowalls and collapse due to internal contradictions as I have demonstrated on the evolution threads.

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@OmSigDAVID,

David; Let's assume you have moderate control and are designing your next generation. You can't make them 10 ft tall, but within reasonable limits, you can do what you want. What changes do you make?

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@engineer,

Look out David. This is psychoanalysis.

Personally I would leach out the gene which causes us men to be putty in the hand that rocks the cradle. That would fix the buggers for good and all.

One would no longer need to be a male chauvinist pig to stand a chance. We could all get a six-pack and watch the game whilst calling for more plates of food and sundry beverages and to get the ashtray emptied and the cushions plumped. Who invented bloody "sexy" anyway? And fashions.

I know one lady of taste who sends a few clothes to the thrift shops pretty regularly to make room in the walk-in-wardrobe for fresh ones and smiles to herself at the thought of her compassion of those lower down the scale.

On second thoughts--could the gene that causes that stuff be leached out?

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@engineer,

engineer wrote:

David; Let's assume you have moderate control and are designing your next generation.
You can't make them 10 ft tall, but within reasonable limits,
you can do what you want. What changes do you make?

First, correct any genetic flaws that give rise to disease.
Next, do the best possible to increase robustly good health
for as long as it is possible for me to do; a good energy level.
The best possible for high I.Q. and E.S.P.
Good memory; good analytical ability, quickly. Speed reader.
Blue eyes; blond hair, an agreeable, harmonious face.
A talent for discerning significant patterns.
A well co-ordinated, proficient marksman;
an articulate lover of liberty and individualism.

David

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@fresco,

fresco wrote:

Quote:
as long as we DO it

Quote:
The central question here is who will be the "we".
Those of us who r able to do it and who desire it.

Quote:
We have seen the consequences when the "we" were the Nazi's.
I am a libertarian individualist.
I abhor all forms of socialism.

Quote:
Presumably the future "we" will also have some sort of prior vested interest
in "improving" their own quality of life which requires resources which like
health-care may never be available to all.
I am no collectivist.

David

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@OmSigDAVID,

Quote:

First, correct any genetic flaws that give rise to disease.
Next, do the best possible to increase robustly good health
for as long as it is possible for me to do; a good energy level.
The best possible for high I.Q. and E.S.P.
Good memory; good analytical ability, quickly. Speed reader.
Blue eyes; blond hair, an agreeable, harmonious face.
A talent for discerning significant patterns.
A well co-ordinated, proficient marksman;
an articulate lover of liberty and individualism.

Leaving aside how tame that is, movie heroes having been doing it for years, how would you organise 301 million like that. The medical and legal professions would be decimated for a start. What sort of work would you organise for your fantasy society?

I can't see the point of being a proficient marksman if one was surrounded by simpering-faced, agreeable and well co-ordinated libertarians.

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It could be good to a limited extent, e.g. editing out serious diseases before conception, or it could go horribly wrong, e.g. discrimination based on DNA profile.

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@Brandon9000,

But discrimination could only exist if there was a caste system. Dave has to have all 301 million meeting the standards he sets or admit to a Strangelove fantasy.

It is possible that the human is already as he depicts and it is the decanting system which causes the characteristics he seeks to eradicate. His society has to be a one-party state.

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EUGENICS R GOOD: TRUE or FALSE ??

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