10yr Old Refuses to Recite Pledge

Rachel Muse
Reply Thu 15 Oct, 2009 08:50 pm
@Diest TKO,
He is very brave!!!!
0 Replies
Reply Thu 15 Oct, 2009 08:57 pm
As i'm sure you may have noticed, although David claims to be a member of Mensa, he doesn't appear to be very well informed. In fact, Canada is a confederation, which assembled itself gradually between 1867 and 1949. David's confusion probably arises from his stupid assumption that any nation which is not like the United States isn't legitimate. David gives the already disreputable term "American exceptionalism" a worse reputation than it deserves.

A republic is a nation which is governed by laws. It doesn't mean anything else--it doesn't mean democracy, it doesn't mean a written constitution, it doesn't specify legislative or executive institutions or processes--it just means a nation which is governed by laws. The states of the United States are not republics in the sense of distinct nations--although that is what state meant before they formed a federal union. The United States constitution guarantees a republican form of government in all states--and once again, that has absolutely no implications for democracy, legislative and executive processes, etc., etc. It just means that each and every state will be governed by law.

Canada was, prior to July 1, 1867, simply the two provinces of Canada East (Québec) and Canada West (Ontario), and was a conjoined imperial province of the British Empire. In 1866, Fenians (Irish Republicans, who in at least one case carried a flag emblazoned "I.R.A.") who were veterans of the American Civil War, invaded or attempted to invade Canada at several points. Most of them were rounded up before the fact, or turned back by American Federal agents or the United States Navy (they were crossing the Great Lakes), but one group made it into the Niagara peninsula, and marched toward Ridgeway, Canada West, near the site of the biggest battle between the English and the Americans during the War of 1812. Several overconfident militia units, quite a few hubristic and incompetent militia officers, and the Queens Own Rifles (Toronto), marched out, and were routed by, thoroughly humiliated by the Irishmen, who were combat veterans with years of experience. The Irish then marched back to Fort Erie, retook it from the Canadian militia, and then surrendered to the United States Navy in the Niagara River, because Colonel O'Neill had fulfilled his mission, which was only ever intended to be diversionary.

The Canadians had been feeding the national vanity on a ridiculous myth dating from the defeat of an American invasion in December, 1812, first publicly articulated by the Anglican Bishop Strachan of York (later Toronto), which claimed that the Canadians had defeated the Americans almost single-handed, and that the English could not have fought and prevailed in Upper Canada (what Ontario was then called) without them. It was bullshit, as historical myths usually are, but it was based on even less truth than most historical myths are. Ridgeway in 1866 made this starkly clear, when thousands of Canadians were outmarched, outfought and routed by a few hundred Irish veterans of the War Between the States.

The English were now more than happy to drop them like a hot rock, because they certainly weren't prepared to spend the money to protect the Canadians indefinitely from invasion. (There are Canadians to this day who believe that Americans cherish a desire to invade Canada . . . yeah . . . right . . . as if . . . ) They quietly and in no uncertain terms let the Canadians know that they needed to take care of themselves.

Two adroit leaders--one each from Canada East and Canada West, who already had a parliament of their own, and had worked out the deals for French-speaking Catholics and English-speaking Protestants who cordially and openly despised one another to live and work together--began to work on creating an independent dominion within the empire. There was at that time a meeting of representatives from the Maritimes (Nova Scotia, New Brunswick and Prince Edward Island) who were meeting in Charlottetown, PEI. They had been screwing around over the idea of a Maritime Union for years, so MacDonald and Cartier from Canada took their show on the road, and the result was the confederation which became the Dominion of Canada as of July 1, 1867, with the Maritimes joining the two Canadas. Manitoba was stolen, fair and square from the inhabitants, and over the next several years, British Columbia, Alberta and Saskatchewan joined up, and the English turned over their other major North American territories to the Canadian Dominion.

In 1949, the die hards of Labrador and Newfoundland finally said: "OK, eh? We'll join, get off our backs." The Queen gave the Canadians the British North American Act sometime in the 1980s (?)--Canada had already ceased to be a Dominion in 1967. You can bet David doesn't have a clue about any of this. By definition, Canada is a republic, although many Canadians don't even understand that.

Never listen to an American conservative: not only do they usually not know **** about history or the rest of the world, they usually even show a profound ignorance of their own nation's history and constitution.
Reply Thu 15 Oct, 2009 10:23 pm
not only do they usually not know **** about history or the rest of the world, ... .

Why would Om listen to someone the likes of you, Setanta, throwing around double negatives like that? Sig won't even deign to address someone so ignorant of the logic of language.
0 Replies
Reply Fri 16 Oct, 2009 12:00 am
A few questions about the US Pledge of Allegiance, if I may. I'm interested. :

- It sounds like (from the Wikipedia entry below) swearing the Pledge is an expectation of those public schools whose state laws require that it be "offered". Is that right?
- Have any US states publicly declared that the Pledge is not a requirement in their schools?
- In the case of states where the Pledge of Allegiance is required, can individual schools gain exemption from swearing the Pledge?

The Pledge of Allegiance to the United States is an oath of loyalty to the republic of the United States of America, originally composed by Francis Bellamy in 1892. The Pledge has been modified four times since then, with the most recent change adding the words "under God" in 1954. The Pledge is predominantly sworn by children in public schools in response to state laws requiring the Pledge to be offered. Congressional sessions open with the swearing of the Pledge, as do government meetings at local levels, meetings held by the Boy Scouts of America, and some sporting events.

The current version of the Pledge of Allegiance reads:

"I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands, one Nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."[1]

According to the United States Flag Code, the Pledge "should be rendered by standing at attention facing the flag with the right hand over the heart. When not in uniform men should remove any non-religious headdress with their right hand and hold it at the left shoulder, the hand being over the heart. Persons in uniform should remain silent, face the flag, and render the military salute."[1]

0 Replies
Reply Fri 16 Oct, 2009 12:57 am
Hard to know which was worse, really ....

The oath or the hymn & prayers?

I think it depended on how much schools actually meant it.

In the case of government schools, the oath was a government requirement. I often felt, as a student, that the teachers were not exactly fervent about it! Like we were all just going through the motions. ....
Idea A thought: Gosh, maybe it meant as little to them as it did to us? Maybe some of them actually loathed being part of it?

0 Replies
Reply Mon 19 Oct, 2009 12:03 pm
@ Chumly. I am Hindu and do not find anything wrong with saying the Lord's Prayer ( we should accept and abide by all religions because basically the "rules" are the same) however being forced to say it is tyrranical. But I digress, kudos to Will and his parents for allowing him to be himself. Smile
0 Replies
Reply Tue 28 Sep, 2010 12:19 am
HA! I love this. I did the same thing in second grade. I was a bit of a spectacle for about a week. I just decided to start saying it again. I dropped the God part off in high school. In retrospect, I'm amazed my wise teachers never said a word to me about it; although they did talk about it, because a few teachers came in to "watch" me during the pledge during my rebellion.
Reply Tue 28 Sep, 2010 08:46 am
I'm impressed you were aware enough of those subject to even think of rebelling in the second grade. I doubt I even thought about what the flag was for much less think about rebelling against it, but then again I was somewhat introverted during school. Probably would have done it if someone told me to.

Long time between posts though.
Reply Tue 28 Sep, 2010 01:58 pm
A republic is a nation which is governed by laws. It doesn't mean anything else--... it doesn't specify legislative or executive institutions or processes--it just means a nation which is governed by laws.

Yes, it does mean something else. It also means that the head of state is not a monarch. There has been talk in Canada and Australia, likely NZ too, to drop the queen as the head of state and become republics.

a state in which supreme power is held by the people and their elected representatives, and which has an elected or nominated president rather than a monarch



[emphasis is mine]



(1) : a government having a chief of state who is not a monarch and who in modern times is usually a president (2) : a political unit (as a nation) having such a form of government


Alberta and Saskatchewan joined up,

Alberta and Saskatchewan never existed until they were created out of a territory by the federal government in 1905.

The Queen gave the Canadians the British North American Act sometime in the 1980s (?)--Canada had already ceased to be a Dominion in 1967.

The Queen gave naught. The Constitution Act was passed by both the British Parliament and the Parliament of Canada. The Queen's signature is a mere formality.

The process of "de-Dominioning" was a gradual process that took place over a half a century.

Reply Tue 28 Sep, 2010 02:07 pm
the queen is a useless old douche, she means nothing to canada

queen charles will mean even less
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Reply Tue 28 Sep, 2010 03:51 pm
I wasn't rebelling against the flag. I was thinking - why do I have to stand up every day and repeat these same words and put my hand on my heart? I felt controlled, and I always questioned stuff at an early age. You would have loved the conversation I had with my daddy at age 7 about the word "nigger." I'm sure they thought I was brought here by Martians.
Reply Wed 29 Sep, 2010 07:36 am
Usually bright young kids are admired even if they do have different opinions than those around them.

I grew up in a house where my dad thought Archie Bunker was a jerk and refused to let us watch it because of his open prejudice. (Along with three's company but for obvious different reasons.) He didn't want any of us picking up on things like that. So I guess that was controlling as well, triple controlling because I don't remember any discussions about it. I didn't really care as long as I got to watch my cartoons though. Wasn't too much thinking watching road runner speed away from the coyote. Come to think about it I remember wishing the coyote would win sometimes. Bugs bunny got on my nerves too, liked daffy duck. My favorite books at that time were Walt Disney comet books mostly with Huey Duey and Loui. Not sure we would have had much in common back then.
Reply Thu 30 Sep, 2010 08:19 pm
Likely not, although I loved Wiley Coyote and the gadgets from Acme, Inc.
0 Replies
Reply Thu 30 Sep, 2010 09:26 pm
I grew up in a house where my dad thought Archie Bunker was a jerk and refused to let us watch it because of his open prejudice.

I think there was none better than ole Archie at embarrassing those with prejudices.
Reply Fri 1 Oct, 2010 06:43 am
I agree. I watch a lot of reruns of it and it is clear what they were trying to accomplish.
Reply Sun 3 Oct, 2010 12:03 am
The show was great and very educational!
0 Replies
Reply Sun 3 Oct, 2010 10:07 pm
@Diest TKO,
Lol! Such dictatorial indoctrination, so much for the land of the free. Very clever kid Imo, high moral integrety.
0 Replies
Reply Thu 7 Oct, 2010 07:23 pm
TUPELO, Miss. — When a Mississippi judge entered a courtroom and asked everyone to stand for the Pledge of Allegiance, an attorney with a reputation for fighting free speech battles stayed silent as everyone else recited the patriotic oath. The lawyer was jailed.

Attorney Danny Lampley spent about five hours behind bars Wednesday before Judge Talmadge Littlejohn set him free so that the lawyer could work on another case. Lampley told The Northeast Mississippi Daily Journal he respected the judge but wasn't going to back down.

"I don't have to say it because I'm an American," Lampley told the newspaper.

The Supreme Court ruled nearly 70 years ago that schoolchildren couldn't be forced to say the pledge, a decision widely interpreted to mean no one could be required to recite the pledge.

On Thursday, the judge again asked those in the courtroom to pledge allegiance to the flag, which stands to the right of the bench.

"I didn't expect the Pledge of Allegiance, but he asked me to do it so I did it," said Melissa Adams, 41, who testified in a child custody case that was closed to the public.

Lampley, 49, previously refused to say the pledge in front of Littlejohn in June. He was asked to leave the courtroom, but returned after the pledge.

The attorney told the newspaper Wednesday it was a problem for the judge and himself to work out, yet blogs across the country lit up with fiery comments and support for both sides.

And in the small town of Tupelo, the birthplace of Elvis with a population of about 35,000, some were infuriated by Lampley's silence.

"I thought he was a disgrace to the United States," Bobby Martin, a 43-year-old self-employed maintenance worker, said of Lampley. "If he can't say that in front of a judge, he don't deserve to be here" in this country.

Others voiced support for the attorney.

"I'm speechless. The judge needs a reminder copy of the First Amendment," said Judith Schaeffer, a Washington attorney who, along with Lampley, successfully sued the Pontotoc school district in northern Mississippi in the 1990s to stop students from praying over the intercom.

Lampley also was victorious representing a Ku Klux Klan leader when a county in the Mississippi Delta tried to prevent a rally.

"Danny's going to stand up for everybody's principles," she said. "Danny loves the Constitution. He's a staunch defender of constitutional rights."

Lampley was representing a client in a divorce case when he was found in contempt. The judge's order, obtained by The Associated Press, said: "Lampley shall purge himself of said criminal contempt by complying with the order of this Court by standing and reciting the Pledge of Allegiance in open court."

An AP reporter tried to arrange an interview with the judge at the courthouse, but a clerk said he was unavailable and the order spoke for itself. Lampley didn't return telephone calls, and a voice message said, "In the aftermath of the event on Oct. 6, I am unable to respond to all of the telephone calls and at the same time take care of my business and clients."

Littlejohn is in his mid-70s and has been a chancery judge for eight years, presiding mainly over divorces and child custody disputes. He was previously a state lawmaker, prosecutor and city judge. He's also a Sunday School teacher at First Baptist Church of New Albany and is known for running an orderly, professional courtroom.

"He respects God and he respects the flag," Alcorn County Chancery Clerk Bobby Marolt said.

Adams, who testified in the custody case, described the judge as a good listener who likes to make jokes when appropriate.

"He's very calm, but he gets on you when he needs to," Adams said. "He listens to you and he's constantly writing things down."

Omar Craig was a defense attorney when Littlejohn was a district attorney years ago. Craig, 83, has practiced law for 56 years in north Mississippi and called Littlejohn one of the leading judges in that part of the state.

"He's a fine judge. Fair. Honest," Craig said.

Judges in Mississippi are elected, though they run in nonpartisan races. Littlejohn is running unopposed for re-election in November.

He ran for a congressional seat as a Democrat in 1996, finishing second out of three candidates in the primary. He lost a runoff.

The Pledge of Allegiance has faced challenges since it was published in 1892.

In 1943, the Supreme Court ruled that children in public schools could not be forced to salute the flag and say the pledge. In 1954, the words "under God" were added to the pledge, when members of Congress at the time said they wanted to set the United States apart from "godless communists."

In March, an appellate court upheld references to God on U.S. currency and in the Pledge of Allegiance, rejecting arguments they violate the constitutional separation of church and state.


Mohr reported from Jackson.
0 Replies
Reply Sat 9 Oct, 2010 04:48 am

Every officer of government shoud be pledging his allegiance
to the INDIVIDUAL CITIZEN, the creator and the sustainer
of his low-life employee: government, not the other way around.

Let 's keep our priorities straight here
of who created what and what owes its EXISTENCE to whom.

We (our forefathers) did not create government because
thay wanted to become the slaves of the damned thing.

Is this at all reminiscent of idolatry ?

First u make the thing, then u clothe it in gold
and then u grovel and worship it? Is THAT a good idea?

0 Replies
Reply Wed 6 Nov, 2013 06:07 am
The student told McDonald during the incident that Jehovah's Witnesses do not worship objects, and that he stood during the Pledge of Allegiance out of respect for the country, but was not permitted by his religion to place his hand over his heart. After the student informed McDonald of this, McDonald went to the front of the class and said, “If you don't want to say the pledge, you still have to put your hand on your heart and if you don't want to do that, you should move out of the country."

WOW. Insane nationalism actually outweighed respect for religion! Well, because it was a Jehovah's Witness and not one of the chosen acceptable religions in America. I always refused to say the pledge because of the words "Under God" but I lived in CA and no one cared.

Spring Hill teacher suspended after trying to force student to say pledge

SPRING HILL – An Explorer K8 teacher was suspended after trying to force one of her students to say the Pledge of Allegiance, according to an investigation.

The student, who is Jehovah's Witness and prohibited by the religion from worshiping objects, refused on religious grounds, the investigation found.

Teacher Anne Daigle-McDonald grabbed the student's wrist and directed him to do the pledge on Sept. 11, according to the investigation.

“(The parents) reported to me that Ms. McDonald had pulled (the student's) arm to force him to put his hand on his heart and told him that he is an American and needed to show respect,” Explorer assistant principal Kristina Garofano wrote in the investigation. “(One parent) stated that she had informed Ms. McDonald on the very first day of (the student) attending EK8 that their family were Jehovah's Witnesses and they did not celebrate holidays.”

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