10yr Old Refuses to Recite Pledge

@djjd62,

djjd62 wrote:

well i only know of one, and that's yours

Well, OK, in that case u can use it if u wanna.

0 Replies

@djjd62,

djjd62 wrote:

we have ten provinces and two territories

I doubt that the provinces count toward being a nation. Thay r like sections,
but u can use the territories toward being an Empire (if the Queen of England does not mind).

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@OmSigDAVID,

I gather he's a citizen, David. Tone has more to do with catching flies with honey, but I'm not on firm ground here since my own tone has had some striking failures at times and I'm a lot older than ten.

Our arguments on a2k can and do degenerate - but the site is most interesting to me when people who are great at argumentation conduct a discussion I learn from, sometimes learning on different sides of issues.

But sometimes we don't even argue, and just talk about pie recipes.

Steps off of soapbox..
back to Will's situation.

3 Replies

@ossobuco,

ossobuco wrote:

Our arguments on a2k can and do degenerate - but the site is most interesting to me when people who are great at argumentation conduct a discussion I learn from, sometimes learning on different sides of issues.

(sorry love, just sneaking in quick to note there are some fascinating and informative threads going on right now which I am hooked to... not to much "flaming" going on and it's interesting reading... excellent)

carry on....

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@ossobuco,

ossobuco wrote:

Quote:
I gather he's a citizen, David. Tone has more to do with catching flies with honey,
but I'm not on firm ground here since my own tone has had some striking failures at times
and I'm a lot older than ten.
The use of honey suggests attempts to convince someone to do something,
whereas in Will 's case, as I understand it, he was vindicating his dignity,
not trying to get the teacher to DO something.

Quote:
Our arguments on a2k can and do degenerate - but the site is most interesting to me
when people who are great at argumentation conduct a discussion I learn from,
sometimes learning on different sides of issues.
Yes; emotional self-discipline can break down, degenerating into quarrelling.

The purpose of argument is to reveal the truth,
whereas the purpose of quarrelling is satisfaction from ego-domination.

Quote:
But sometimes we don't even argue, and just talk about pie recipes.

Steps off of soapbox..
back to Will's situation.
Pies r good too.

David

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@Cycloptichorn,

Cycloptichorn wrote:

You ought to. His posts would probably not be allowed to go forth. There are legal reasons behind this, IIRC.

Cycloptichorn

We might also note that this forum is anonymous,
with obvious advantages of freedom.

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@willsmom,

Hello Laura and Will

I'll add my thanks to you, Will, for doing the right thing and standing up (or sitting down) for what you believe. Congratulations.

And to you and your spouse, Laura, congratulations on encouraging your son to think not only about LGBT liberties and (in)justice, but to think about liberty and justice at all. I think that what caught the attention of the media is that (unfortunately) your son is rarer than hen's teeth.

I teach law students, and although I try to create thought-provoking topics for my classes, I still find students who just aren't interested. They don't ask the questions that are screaming to be asked. And sometimes they don't see the injustices that occur daily.

My parents grew up in Nazi Germany, where asking questions in school and standing up for what was right was highly discouraged (to say the least). And we see what happened to those students who were taught NOT to question. <sigh>

I will be forever grateful to my parents for telling me to question what the teachers say and to think for myself. Of course, there was a time where they regretted instilling that independence in me, especially when I was thinking for myself and questioning them. But I digress . . . That's why when students just take what I say and what the courts say in their opinions as gospel . . . well . . . I want to (and often do) urge them to think!

Thanks again, Laura and your spouse, for raising such a socially aware and socially conscious kid. He appears to be a keeper. ;-)

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@willsmom,

You ought to be proud to have raised a child with the ability to separate the wheat from the chaf and show personal integrity, especially in the face of public censure. You are raising a leader, not a follower, and you have my applause. We need more people like your son, and an awful lot fewer of that teacher.

Nicely done.

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@ossobuco,

ossobuco wrote:

But sometimes we don't even argue, and just talk about pie recipes.

Steps off of soapbox..
back to Will's situation.

Today I bought a cherry pie and a pineapple pie.
I have consumed the pineapple pie.

David

0 Replies

@rich8ames,

rich8ames wrote:

Wow! Good for him. His parents have taught him well - Stand up (or sit down) for what you believe in.

Although, he should respect his elders.

So where does the line get drawn?

Let's step back for perspective.
Everyone shoud respect everyone else, as a general rule.
I did not see anything in your post that said that their elders
shoud reciprocally and equally respect their juniors.

On the contrary, the elders usually try to get their juniors
to AGGRANDIZE them, like saying: "hay look at me, kid!
I 'm old, relative to u, and I want u to treat me like I 'm a big shot
or I 'll yell at u or do something else bad to u."

Beyond ordinary courtesy, respect shoud by earned.
It seems to me, that people who demand that kids
"respect their elders" mean that as a result of fear
of a larger, more powerful person thay shoud be
hypocritical, pretending to admire them, . . . or else.
I dissent from intimidating kids (except in self-defense).

David

0 Replies

@Cycloptichorn,

Cycloptichorn wrote:

I got in trouble for something similar, two decades ago. It kept going up and up the ladder until someone wisely decided that they were opening a real can of worms.

In the end, I had to stand - the teacher can order you to stand - but I stayed silent.

Cycloptichorn

Yeah, and u can order him to jump out the window,
but neither has to execute the order of the other,
if he does not wanna.

What is the worst that can happen for recalcitrance? not much,
but then again, I shoud acknowledge that some kids wish to continue
within the system and prefer not to be excluded therefrom.

1 Reply

@OmSigDAVID,

OmSigDAVID wrote:

Cycloptichorn wrote:

I got in trouble for something similar, two decades ago. It kept going up and up the ladder until someone wisely decided that they were opening a real can of worms.

In the end, I had to stand - the teacher can order you to stand - but I stayed silent.

Cycloptichorn

Yeah, and u can order him to jump out the window,
but neither has to execute the order of the other,
if he does not wanna.

What is the worst that can happen for recalcitrance? not much,
but then again, I shoud acknowledge that some kids wish to continue
within the system and prefer not to be excluded therefrom.

True, but I had no moral problem with standing whatsoever. Kind of nice to stretch the legs actually.

Cycloptichorn

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I was forced to sing "O Canada" and say the "The Lord's Prayer" in public elementary school.

When I would not abide, I would be sent to the principle's office and get the strap.

Talk about hypocritical violence-endorsing insanity!

Quote:

O Canada!
Our home and native land!
True patriot love in all thy sons command.

With glowing hearts we see thee rise,
The True North strong and free!

From far and wide,
O Canada, we stand on guard for thee.

God keep our land glorious and free!
O Canada, we stand on guard for thee.

O Canada, we stand on guard for thee.

Quote:

Our Father, who art in heaven,
hallowed be thy name.
Thy Kingdom come,
thy will be done,
on earth as it is in heaven
Give us this day our daily bread.
And forgive us our trespasses,
as we forgive those who trespass against us.
And lead us not into temptation,
but deliver us from evil.
For thine is the kingdom, the power and the glory. for ever and ever. Amen

2 Replies

@Chumly,

Chumly, this fell seriously out of favour in Oz schools, around about the 1970s .... (if my memory serves me right) during our involvement in the Vietnam war:

I love god and my country
I will honour the flag
I will serve the queen
And cheerfully obey
my parents, teachers & the law.

For some strange reason, neither students or teachers were exactly happy about it!

Neutral

~

2 Replies

@msolga,

Kinda creepy they were disappointed! Thoughtful disobedience is a rational way to being about potentially beneficial change.

1 Reply

@Chumly,

You may be right there! Problem was, Australians weren't that really that big on patriotic rituals, so ......

2 Replies

@msolga,

Was that a typo on your part and thus did you mean "weren't exactly..."

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@msolga,

yes, a typo, you observant thing!

Thank you for bringing it to my attention.

(I was in a great rush. Had to be somewhere by 8 am.

And now I'm back!)

I meant to say:

You may be right there! Problem was, Australians weren't really that big on patriotic rituals, so ......

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@msolga,

My school didn't have that stuff.....I thought it was weird. I think they saluted the flag, or some such nonsense, too.

Mind you, we had prayers and hymns instead.

1 Reply

@OmSigDAVID,

OmSigDAVID wrote:

djjd62 wrote:

i don't even know all the words to the canadian national anthem

Is Canadia a nation?
I 'm not sure.
To be a nation, it needs more than one republic.
We have 50 of them.

David

I see nothing in the various definitions of "nation" that suggests this. Seems any group can call themselves a nation, and can certainly be a single state/republic/island/whatever.

1 Reply

10yr Old Refuses to Recite Pledge

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