31
   

10yr Old Refuses to Recite Pledge

 
 
rich8ames
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 Oct, 2009 09:45 pm
@Diest TKO,
Wow! Good for him. His parents have taught him well - Stand up (or sit down) for what you believe in. Although, he should respect his elders. So where does the line get drawn?
msolga
 
  2  
Reply Wed 14 Oct, 2009 01:12 am
@Diest TKO,
I disagree with requiring loyalty oaths of children. An oath of allegiance only makes sense when the individual properly understands what exactly they're pledging themselves to.
Now this was quite a thinking 10 year old! I'm very impressed!
dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 Oct, 2009 01:22 am
@msolga,
I refused to stand up for God save the Queen at nine, because I was anti-monarchy.

Sounds like a great kid!!!

0 Replies
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  2  
Reply Wed 14 Oct, 2009 02:15 am
@Diest TKO,
I must agree with Mr. Phillips, tho as a proponent of laissez faire bilateral freedom
of contract, I disagree with his homosexual-related reasoning.
However, before he reaches the issue of homosexual rights,
he is beset with violation of his natural rights upon the basis of his age;
e.g., he is disenfranchized, inter alia. Y shoud he pledge his allegiance
to a democratic republic wherein HE CANNOT VOTE and which
subjects him to multiple age-based discriminations ?

As to "talking back" of course he shoud do so if he feels a need
to communicate, for instance disputing & resisting what agents of the collective tell him.

That 's ADMIRABLE. If I knew him, I 'd give him a ticket to Disneyworld in recognition of his American courage.
He 's a good citizen.





David
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 Oct, 2009 02:23 am
@msolga,
msolga wrote:

I disagree with requiring loyalty oaths of children.
An oath of allegiance only makes sense when the individual properly understands
what exactly they're pledging themselves to.
Now this was quite a thinking 10 year old! I'm very impressed!
ABSOLUTELY RIGHT!!!
I remember Mrs. Jacobson in my kindergarten class
on the first day of class when she told the class of the Pledge:
"just say the words."





David
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  0  
Reply Wed 14 Oct, 2009 07:18 am
@engineer,
The passage doesn't pledge to create liberty and justice for all, it asserts that it already exists. The boy is completely correct to deny that this is the case.
engineer
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 Oct, 2009 07:41 am
@Setanta,
Then no statement espousing liberty or justice will ever be valid since we will never perfectly obtain either.
willsmom
 
  4  
Reply Wed 14 Oct, 2009 07:53 am
@OmSigDAVID,
david,
this is will's mother. no really. i had no idea that this thing would go as far as it has as quickly as it has. we attend a unitarian church and have many gay friends. my son has a clear understanding of the rights that we have as a family that those friends do not (adopting a child, being foster parents, insurance coverage, marriage, ect.) he is not the average 10 year old. i am beyond proud of him for choosing his own path and for standing up for something that he has strong convictions about. now about that ticket to disney... Smile
seriously, after all the negative comments and such from people in our home town, it is nice to find that the internet is filled with those that support my son.
thank you so much!
Laura
[email protected]
(cause i aint afraid to answer questions )
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 Oct, 2009 10:57 am
@engineer,
Once again, Ralph . . . the pledge doesn't espouse, it states that this nation has liberty and justice for all. If you despair of that in the long watches of the night, you have my sympathy, but not my agreement.
0 Replies
 
Diest TKO
 
  4  
Reply Wed 14 Oct, 2009 12:33 pm
@willsmom,
Whoa... Wait... Is this a joke post? Are you really his mother?

If so, then this is a interesting internet first for me. I find a story shared from a friend on Facebook, follow the link, read the story, re-post it on A2K, it gets read, comments made, and then the people who this story is actually about somehow are able to find this thread? If you are the mother of this child, and not just another poster here having fun at David, that is incredible.

The internet is amazing sometimes.
K
O
willsmom
 
  6  
Reply Wed 14 Oct, 2009 12:49 pm
@Diest TKO,
really, i am his mom. really. i posted one story on facebook, it was spread on teh ap wire (the print article), now the link for the tv coverage has been reported as "offensive' on facebook. its crazy. we had NO idea that th is had spread as far and as fast as it has until someone said they heard it on NPR. if you dont believe me, look for me on facebook. laura phillips [email protected] i want people to contact me with questions, cause i am sick of the misunderstandings and assumptions.
Laura
Diest TKO
 
  2  
Reply Wed 14 Oct, 2009 12:58 pm
@willsmom,
I see. I'm from Springfield, Missouri originally (I live out in DC now). I went to school in Rolla, MO. I saw it on facebook, so I imagine it spread through the region and found it's way to one of my friends. It's really amazing, isn't it?

I posted the story here because I felt like I could relate. I do not recite the pledge anymore, after learning it's history. It's history specifically regaurding it being edited. It's not that I don't like it. I think it's actually quite special... or at least it is supposed to be.

The other side of this story that captivates me (as reported) is that I am a big advocate for LGBT equality and rights. I believe sincerely that the arguments for these rights aren't some ultra complex system, but something as simple as a child could understand. Your son, is that example. Literally.

The story doesn't really speak to some details I'm curious about. How did the other students react to his choice? Was it just shock that he was telling a teacher "no," or did they get to hear his reasoning? Has he been teased or bullied from this? What about the parent community? How have you been treated?

I know the Ozarks. Level with me.

T
K
O
0 Replies
 
willsmom
 
  7  
Reply Wed 14 Oct, 2009 01:13 pm
Ha! Rolla, wow. he skipped from 3rd to 5th (elem to middle school in our district) so he was already " the weird smart kid". most people (kids) have just let it go. adults on the other hand...well, you know adults. last friday a friend of his was going to sit with him as a show of support. same sub as started all this, looked at the friend and said "just cause he's sitting down doesnt mean you can too." at which point my son pulled a copy of the first amendment out of his backpack, slammed it on her desk and said "acctually, he can". if you read the ccomments on some of the blogs or news stories, he is from a single parent home, i am a lesbian and we are anti american nazis. actually, his dad and i have been married 11 years and we are really very nice people Smile yes, he did talk back to a teacher. but after most of a week of hassle by a teacher (a retired teacher from that district. where i graduated from , and where my mother retired from after 25 years of teaching ) he lost his temper. we addressed that.
i am a proud straight ally for the local lgbt community. in fact, my son has been asked to speak at a fund raiser for the northwest arkasnas center for equality on monday. its not just gay rights, its about civil rights (he would add, stupid! on the end of that..._)
thank you again for your support.
Laura
Cycloptichorn
 
  2  
Reply Wed 14 Oct, 2009 01:17 pm
@willsmom,
I got in trouble for something similar, two decades ago. It kept going up and up the ladder until someone wisely decided that they were opening a real can of worms.

In the end, I had to stand - the teacher can order you to stand - but I stayed silent.

Cycloptichorn
willsmom
 
  2  
Reply Wed 14 Oct, 2009 01:25 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
according to a scotus case from 1943 they cant make you stand or say it. trust me, we have researched this in the past few days!
Cycloptichorn
 
  2  
Reply Wed 14 Oct, 2009 01:26 pm
@willsmom,
willsmom wrote:

according to a scotus case from 1943 they cant make you stand or say it. trust me, we have researched this in the past few days!



Haha, I didn't research enough back then!

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
Diest TKO
 
  5  
Reply Wed 14 Oct, 2009 01:27 pm
@willsmom,
You're about the nicest anti-American Nazi lesbian mom I've had the pleasure to chat with. I'm glad you addressed his temper so he can divide the topic from what is and isn't good behavior.

You've got a bold son. Be proud.

T
K
O
0 Replies
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 Oct, 2009 03:23 pm
@willsmom,
willsmom wrote:

david,
this is will's mother. no really. i had no idea that this thing would go as far as it has as quickly as it has. we attend a unitarian church and have many gay friends. my son has a clear understanding of the rights that we have as a family that those friends do not (adopting a child, being foster parents, insurance coverage, marriage, ect.) he is not the average 10 year old. i am beyond proud of him for choosing his own path and for standing up for something that he has strong convictions about. now about that ticket to disney... Smile
seriously, after all the negative comments and such from people in our home town, it is nice to find that the internet is filled with those that support my son.
thank you so much!
Laura
[email protected]
(cause i aint afraid to answer questions )
Hi, Laura !!!
Its really great to hear from u.
U certainly have a brave, very intelligent and self-confident son to be PROUD of!
I recognize my own traits in him, tho I never did anything that bold at age ten.
Please give him a hearty handshake from me!
That offer of a Disney Ticket IS GOOD if u tell me where to send it
(after I return from San Diego next week; I 'm leaving tomorrow A.M. for a convention
of the International Association of Near Death Studies www.IANDS.org).
I take it that his first name is Will ?
I referred to him as "Mr. Phillips" because I did not know his first name,
but then again, before I retired from practice as a trial attorney in NY,
when I was on-the-job, I always referred to juvenile litigants with
the same titles of courtesy as adults, expressing equal respect regardless of age.
(I used to think that adults talked down to kids, disrespectfully, condescendingly.)

I hope that u will show Will my first post on this thread.
I am a life-long believer in laissez faire free enterprise,
libertarianism and Individualism. As such, in my opinion,
no one shoud be forced into any contract against his will,
on either side of that contract. That is the reason that I said
what I did about disagreeing concerning homosexual rights.
HOWEVER, I can agree with his position as to equal rights
for homosexuals qua adopting a child, being foster parents,
and insurance coverage. I am neutral as to marriage;
I truely have no opinion as to that (except that I don 't wanna DO it).

May I ask how u discovered our discussion on this board?

I wonder whether Will woud like to post on this board ?





David
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 Oct, 2009 03:27 pm
@OmSigDAVID,
Quote:

I wonder whether Will woud like to post on this board ?


As he's only 10, it would be a violation of the Terms of Service.

Cycloptichorn
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 Oct, 2009 03:34 pm
@willsmom,
willsmom wrote:

Ha! Rolla, wow. he skipped from 3rd to 5th (elem to middle school in our district) so he was already " the weird smart kid". most people (kids) have just let it go. adults on the other hand...well, you know adults. last friday a friend of his was going to sit with him as a show of support. same sub as started all this, looked at the friend and said "just cause he's sitting down doesnt mean you can too." at which point my son pulled a copy of the first amendment out of his backpack, slammed it on her desk and said "acctually, he can". if you read the ccomments on some of the blogs or news stories, he is from a single parent home, i am a lesbian and we are anti american nazis. actually, his dad and i have been married 11 years and we are really very nice people Smile yes, he did talk back to a teacher. but after most of a week of hassle by a teacher (a retired teacher from that district. where i graduated from , and where my mother retired from after 25 years of teaching ) he lost his temper. we addressed that.
i am a proud straight ally for the local lgbt community. in fact, my son has been asked to speak at a fund raiser for the northwest arkasnas center for equality on monday. its not just gay rights, its about civil rights (he would add, stupid! on the end of that..._)
thank you again for your support.
Laura
Wow! He is a fine boy and a good American.





David
0 Replies
 
 

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