What qualifies a man to talk about an issue like feminism?

For example, take this:



Do you think this is true? Why or why not?

I think in picking one central point to argue you can get a lot of the other stuff in there but it'd be an easier and more cogent read.

no, I'm not. I'm talking about the mystique of a females virginity to men.

The way I read your entry-- the glorification of the female virgin.

I don't know if you were supporting this or not, or just trying to clarify Deist's point.

People (men or woman) who go around "censuring disrespectful behavior" they see in their friends don't get invited to many parties.

I dunno, I think there's a continuum. There are a lot of things I'd let go, and some things I wouldn't. If, for example, a friend made a joke about "those lazy niggers," I'd probably say something instead of just letting it pass.

As an aside -- ebrown's particular brand of "you're dissing men now aren't you? and now?? You so are, I can tell" is exactly what I haven't liked about feminism. The whole victim mentality, purposely reading things wrong so as to be able to express moral outrage thing. I took a lot of women's studies classes in college in the early 90's and I was forever being the "um wait, not so much" voice in those (and having scorn heaped upon me by "real feminists" as a result).

What if your friend had a bachelorette party with strippers?

I think this is the kind of thing that Deist is referring to (not the easy case of outright slurs).

Eh.

I think it is a fair question-- there are not many men (at least not in my experience) that sit around using random slurs against women. The way I am reading Deists point involves men expressing their sexuality in what he considers a "disrespectful" way.

If this really is about outright slurs... then this is outside of my experience as a man.

I think the bachelorette party example is the appropriate example for discussion.

My "eh" was my response. As in, shrug.

Interestingly, (maybe), I read it as "bachelor party" -- as in, would I censure a male friend for having female strippers at his party. That was my initial "eh/shrug" response.

Same for bachelorette/ male strippers.

My husband has been around men who sit around using random slurs against women, and has spoken up about it. That's nice that the people you know aren't like that, but of course they still exist. I think there are less of 'em than there used to be, which is a good thing.

Odd example. I would not have friends that use the "n" word.

The word "censure" seems a bit harsh here... but I think you mean make your disapproval known. And, I note the equality in your response.

My problem is that this an example of social pressure being used to deny a part of human sexuality that goes across cultures throughout human history. In modern culture I would like to think that we have gotten over our need to regulate sexual activity between consenting adults.

There is much in common between feminism and Puritanism-- particularly in the need to dictate acceptable sexual behavior.

How do you get that I would censure them (either example) from what I wrote? Or even disapprove?

"Eh/ shrug" seems pretty clear to me.

Friend (male or female): I'm having strippers of the gender that I am attracted to at my party!!! Are you, like, totally shocked and appalled??

Me: Eh. <shrug>

OK.

OK.

Seriously though, can you see what I'm getting at re: misreading things so you can grab the opportunity to express moral outrage? I get the exact same vibe as I did in those women's studies classes, just with genders reversed...

gee thanks Soz. I strive for balance

You're welcome.

This is an example of what I meant. The "random slurs" are what Mediawoman has persuaded you to think of that way. But what is a slur to her is often thought of as a compliment by any self-respecting flapper. The views of the latter have been peeceed out of your vision.

And here's another-



It is only a good thing to those who think it is a good thing. And not all do. Some think it a bad thing. And not just because it removes about 99% of humour's inspirations. It might be seen as a devious plan whereby those women who have no assets to flaunt try to prevent those who have for doing what comes naturally.

What sort of thing do you consider a slur eb?

It's okay to start at the genteel end of the spectrum.

Fair question. First, I'd try not to get hung up on the term. I won't say that I don't have stereotypes, but I don' think this speaks to any of those. The passage you quoted for clarification, sozobe did a pretty good job of reading (despite my VERY wordy nature). The point is that women's issues take place in places where there are NO women at all (at least in the corporeal.). An example might be that a man may openly broadcast ideas of equality about women, but in a private setting might think contrary, perhaps in benign ways. Music and film are experiences where men consume large amounts of ideas about women and not all of them positive. How does the man on his own, internally (or perhaps with other men) process the media? This is the type of topics at that depth I want to explore in the future.


Sorry Gala, but you're just far off on this. The social perception of virginity differs between men and women. I'm not saying that it should, but it does. Mystique to men? You think that women are less concerned on the topic of a women's virginity? How is this mystique to men? Most of the comments I've ever received about the difference in perception, have come from women. If talking about mystique, could it not be the females mystique with the man's social allowance to be promiscuous and rewarded?


Then keep reading, because the subtext is about the moral subjugation of women for doing the same act man does and is socially rewarded for.


This is certainly a topic that I could write about and explore the many issues that could be present.


How about just expressing themselves. Not the whole of feminism is about sexuality. How I treat my female coworkers, is not an expression of sexuality. Think bigger. It goes beyond expression too. How a man internalizes things is topical too.


Well, me neither. The friends I used to have that did use language like that... well... let's just say we grew apart, and I'm really not that upset that they don't invite me to their parties.

Again, think bigger. You are limiting yourself to the topic of sexual behavior. Beyond that, what about feminism is dictating what is and is not acceptable sexual behavior? Isn't it more accurate to say the opposite, that feminism challenges the establishment on what is acceptable sexual behavior? Feminism doesn't say to be either virginal or promiscuous.

Thanks for the all the replies everyone. We're starting to get somewhere now!
K
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