What qualifies a man to talk about an issue like feminism?

Having attended university in the 1960s, i attach a lot of negative impressions to the term "feminism," which is not at all saying that my overall view of feminism is negative. The entire concept of "political rectitude" comes from the militancy of the 1960s, and i consider feminists of that era to be at least as much responsible for "PC" bullshit as anyone else.

However, i have no objection to, and in almost all cases have a positive view of the social progress which has arisen from 60s feminism--equal pay for equal work, the elimination of the glass ceiling, the securing and extension of abortion rights, child care provision for employees, maternity and child care leave--there are a host of very good things for everyone in society which have come out of the feminist movement, and not just for women. I read so often that contemporary feminists are not like their predecessors, and have even read that they are the despair of their predecessors--don't know about that, someone else would have to comment.

I see no reason why a man cannot reasonably comment on feminism (or unreasonably, for that matter, although everyone practicing shrill unreason is subject to get called for it), but i would never consider myself to be a feminist, nor yet again want to be one.

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@Setanta,

Very well said Setanta.

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@Gala,

Gala wrote:

Exactly, just hop in there and without a doubt you will piss people off-- it doesn't take much.

That's the whole purpose of a political blog, isn't it? Wink

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Interesting reviews thus far.

Gala - The timidness on my behalf is real, but it's not timidity to offend. I've been posting here like 3 years, I don't have a problem being controversial. My timidity is instead on over estimating my ability to speak on the topic despite having many thoughts or ideas. This was my introductory post, and I didn't really need to discuss everything in the world of feminism. I didn't really feel like offering opinions on individual topics in this. There are just too many (and I'm obviously pretty wordy so that wood take forever). Instead, I decided to explore the continuum of topics and divide it into a three part dichotomy (the admittedly odd pool metaphor).

ebrownp wrote:

This article is both silly and insulting. The soccer example is foolish. The idea that being male in a dating relationship is "negative" is mildly insulting. The belief that men and women aren't equally responsible for the relationships they choose to enter makes no sense. The continuing idea that men don't have a strong interest in child birth is maddening.

ebrownp - What about the soccer example is foolish? When did I say that a male being in a dating relationship is negative? When did I say that a man and woman aren't equally responsible for a relationship? When did I say that men had no interest in child birth?

I'm very interested feedback in the blog entry I wrote. I'm less interested in feedback on the entry I didn't write.

T
K
O

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@Diest TKO,

Quote:

When did I say that men had no interest in child birth?

Quote:

At the point where the water is over a man's head, ... Once our toes can't touch the bottom anymore, can I man have anything to share on things like child birth, rape, abortion, and other major topics?

As a father, and someone deeply involved in the birth, and childhood of my children I find the idea that I am "over my head" talking about it to be quite insulting.

Quote:

. How men field those issues can say a lot about how we contribute positively or negatively. Music, film, literature, pornography and other popular forms of media and it's consumption exist here. The example I'll give (but won't labor on about) is women's sports... ome might be surprised to learn that in women's soccer, the USA has been the definitive team for over a decade.

It is interesting you mentioned pornography; a field where female performers earn far more prestige and are paid far better then male performers... but we will stick to sports. Women's gymnastics is far more prominent then the male version of the sport, as is figure skating. I don't know what this says about a man's ability to talk about feminism.

Quote:

Dating, most immediately comes to mind here for me. The words "hierarchy" and "roles" come to mind but don't find themselves worked into sentences so easily. Does a man seek an equal relationship? What does a man do if he finds himself in a relationship where he is not equal (be him the dominant or recessive partner)? More topics, I think a man can talk about.

A relationship that consists of two people who enter the relationship consensually and can leave at any time depends on what the two people want. This is not a man's issue, or a woman's issue. If you don't like the relationship you are in... find another.

What does feminism have to do with this. You have no business judging someone else's relationship. If a man who wants to be a bread-winner finds a woman who wants to be a homemaker, whose business is it?

Many marriages are built on the idea that the wife should be submissive to her husband (although how this works seems to vary from couple to couple). Isn't this a woman's choice?

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@ebrown p,

ebrown p wrote:

Quote:
When did I say that men had no interest in child birth?

Quote:
At the point where the water is over a man's head, ... Once our toes can't touch the bottom anymore, can I man have anything to share on things like child birth, rape, abortion, and other major topics?

As a father, and someone deeply involved in the birth, and childhood of my children I find the idea that I am "over my head" talking about it to be quite insulting.

Dude, seriously. Feel insulted if you like, but I didn't say men can't talk about it. I didn't offer an opinion, I asked a question. You obviously have an answer to that question, and your offense can only be to me asking. I didn't offer any commentary on child birth, only that it IS a topic. If I had said "giving birth" would it have more obvious that I was talking about the actual act of birth and NOT family planning.

ebrown p wrote:

Quote:
. How men field those issues can say a lot about how we contribute positively or negatively. Music, film, literature, pornography and other popular forms of media and it's consumption exist here. The example I'll give (but won't labor on about) is women's sports... ome might be surprised to learn that in women's soccer, the USA has been the definitive team for over a decade.

It is interesting you mentioned pornography; a field where female performers earn far more prestige and are paid far better then male performers... but we will stick to sports. Women's gymnastics is far more prominent then the male version of the sport, as is figure skating. I don't know what this says about a man's ability to talk about feminism.

So you don't think there are gender issues associated with media coverage of women's sports? how are you saying anything different than me here? As for porn and wages, what's your point? That there is yet another topic I can talk about that I already said I can talk about?

ebrown p wrote:

Quote:
Dating, most immediately comes to mind here for me. The words "hierarchy" and "roles" come to mind but don't find themselves worked into sentences so easily. Does a man seek an equal relationship? What does a man do if he finds himself in a relationship where he is not equal (be him the dominant or recessive partner)? More topics, I think a man can talk about.

A relationship that consists of two people who enter the relationship consensually and can leave at any time depends on what the two people want. This is not a man's issue, or a woman's issue. If you don't like the relationship you are in... find another.

The discussion on what a relationship should consist of and what are real and fair expectations and what are not is the topic. Talking about equal share and healthy relationships is the topic. I didn't offer any relationship advice here. I just identified some topics I could talk about. What makes you think my input on those topics would be different than your own?

ebrown p wrote:

What does feminism have to do with this. You have no business judging someone else's relationship. If a man who wants to be a bread-winner finds a woman who wants to be a homemaker, whose business is it?

Whose relationship did I judge or even mention? What in my piece did I say that you relate to bread winning and homemaking? Both are good topics, but I didn't write about either here.

ebrown p wrote:

Many marriages are built on the idea that the wife should be submissive to her husband (although how this works seems to vary from couple to couple). Isn't this a woman's choice?

Did I say otherwise?

Honestly epb, I like your input, but stop getting so damn spun up. I didn't need to give every single opinion on every topic in this piece. I was invited to write there, so I'm going to have many more chances to explore lots of topics in the future. If you truly disagree with my opinions, please wait until I've expressed them.

T
K
O

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@Diest TKO,

I remember your first posting of a discussion, three or so years ago-- at least I'm pretty sure--it was about the teacher who told you not to bother with college cause you wouldn't make or something along those lines. In the end, you kind of quietly and gracefully stuck it to the man.

Anyway, I don't think you're being timid to offend, I think you're on some new territory here and on the whole you chose style over expressing your thoughts more simply.

I can understand your hestiancy, but really, with your ability to write you ought not treat the topic so tenderly, which in a backhanded sort of a way, makes you seem as if you are terrifed of women.

I think it's safe to say you're not going to write something callous or careless, or rude, or even mean-spirited, it's just not what you're about.

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@ebrown p,

That's a hoot, thanks for posting this.

By the way, Gloria Steinem is married to Christian Bale's father.

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Quote:

Am I in over my head on this one?

For sure.

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I believe women are doing a disservice to women, and society in general, when little girls are given dolls to play with, and boys are given trucks to play with. There is nothing stopping the brain of a little girl to develop the abilities to do mechanical things and be competent without a man, when it comes to the world of inanimate objects. Something, I believe, women should ponder.

I would not give boys dolls to play with though. Perhaps, a teddy bear.

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Another brainless post from the master of brainless posts, Foofie. What leads you to assume that women, and only women, give toys to children?

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@Foofie,

Setanta is exactly right. Research shows that fathers play a greater role in the gender socialization of children than mothers do.

1 Reply

@Foofie,

Quote:

I believe women are doing a disservice to women, and society in general, when little girls are given dolls to play with, and boys are given trucks to play with. There is nothing stopping the brain of a little girl to develop the abilities to do mechanical things and be competent without a man, when it comes to the world of inanimate objects. Something, I believe, women should ponder.

You don't have a daughter, do you.

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@DrewDad,

Factually (as any parent can tell you), quite a bit of "gender socialization" is done by the kids themselves.

There is something biologically wired into the brain that makes girls prefer dolls and boys to prefer weapons. This is true even for kids with the most liberal parents.

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@ebrown p,

ebrown p wrote:

There is something biologically wired into the brain that makes girls prefer dolls and boys to prefer weapons. This is true even for kids with the most liberal parents.

Nope. The latest research indicates otherwise.

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@DrewDad,

I just double checked. The latest research I can find indicates that yes (in addition to the obvious effect of socialization) there are innate gender differences.

These experiments (showing that male infants prefer traditionally male toys more than females) have now been repeated in non-human primates (i.e. monkey).

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=2643016

Quote:

Now, publication of a second study showing that male monkeys show more interest in boys’ toys than do female monkeys (Hassett et al., 2008) strengthens the evidence of inborn influences on sex-typed toy preferences, and augments prior findings that girls exposed to high levels of androgen prenatally show increased interest in boys’ toys, and reduced interest in girls’ toys (Berenbaum & Hines, 1992; Pasterski et al., 2005).

We clearly evolved with innate gender differences.

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@Setanta,

Setanta wrote:

What qualifies a man to talk about an issue like feminism?

We all live in this world together. The actions and ideas of men affect the lives of women. The actions and ideas of women affect the lives of men. It is entirely reasonable for one group to comment on the other.

*******************************

My body has evolved through millennia to only move if i have to, and to seek out and consume vast quantities of rich foods, while avoiding the sink and the dishwasher.

Perfect. check please.

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Quote:

What does feminism have to do with this. You have no business judging someone else's relationship. If a man who wants to be a bread-winner finds a woman who wants to be a homemaker, whose business is it?

Feminism is a political movement. As such it has to do with bread-winning and homemaking.

This particular political movement has generated its power from Media.

There are reasons for that. The sort of independent woman who rejects homemaking as demeaning is first off in a minority. This creates indignation energy in itself. And that is transferred to activity: study, getting qualified, relocating to cities, and suchlike, and results in such women being selected by Media to fill the quota they have set themselves so as to look like they are doing their bit for equality for women because that sells stuff and gets eyeballs on ads which are easily mesmerised and can be made to want things pretty badly and know exactly how to go about getting what they want. It's the shop-window approach that paid dividends. It's designed to ensure that family income is spent on nice things such as Black and Decker workmates and antique computer desks rather than highly taxed beer and cigarettes and other things which are consumed where the sap can't be kept under constant monitoring, and that it is spent into the accounts of the companies who pay Media to expose the exellence of their product. There was too much brand loyalty in the beer and smokes market for Media's liking. Some people were known to have smoked Woodbines from 9 to 90. And I read about one of them who got killed in a car crash.

So this minority, and it's a small one, are setting the agenda to justify themselves in their choice and to gradually make the homemaker feel more and more ashamed of herself and her dreary, dowdy, inactive life as if we men are all that bothered about our women being a bit off the fashion radar. It's an insult to ordinary, everyday women everywhere, who are, they say, born every minute, that we men don't find them satisfactorily attractive. We can always shut the lights off anyway. Some men have been known to have relations with women who weren't who they thought they were, by fraud or deception or accident, and never to have known the difference. It's in Shakespeare.

And the pubs are shutting and we have to go outside for a smoke and everybody's going mad about world records and if you're any good at anything it gets crazy. And if you stroke a bottom that's all got up specifically to make it look like it's just dying to be stroked all the alarm bells go off. Even the posh have had it-- "What do you want to go hunting for when it costs so much and you know how I hate it when I think of the man I married chasing all round the countryside with those common county girls in their silly jodhpurs after a poor little furry creature and with those horrible dogs--oh oh (takes onion from pocket and bursts into tears).

Right. Humpbacked bedclothes tonight for him.

It would have been safe enough if Media had equal opportunities in respect of all the ladies and not just feminists. Feminism has an army. It has a hierarchy. A Top Brass. This blog is in the trenches.

And it played the Ace of Trumps. SEX. Bernard Shaw said that if we gave women the vote we would end up talking about ovaries all day long. I know he made some poor predictions but it's looking like he got that one right. Rape was No 1. It still is. And we're down as far as helping with the washing up now. As if there is something wrong with washing up. And they dirty the dishes on their own account. So it's only an extra plate and knife and fork which is not worth getting a pair of rubber gloves for and a pinny.

SEX- An editor's joy. It had to be the negative side of sex because the positive side is not allowed. You could hint. It sold. And they knew which women could be relied upon. Their own kind gave them high marks in exams. Now they are everywhere and they think nobody has noticed. They like us to think the joyous things Set mentioned had happened spontaneously as a matter of natural justice when in actual fact they are due to progressive technology and mechanisation. And whatever else is said it is putting women to work. Mens working week has shortened.

And they might be a good thing. Who knows. I don't. The real Top Brass might even be men. Men controlled Media when it started.

But it's logical that they should do away with men, apart maybe from a few milkers selected on the lines bloodstock breeders use, and some mechanics, just as soon as science makes it practicable. Then they wouldn't need to look good anymore and could wear baggy clothes and run to seed.

What use are most men nowadays? How many jobs are there that a woman can't do and they have a range of toys which make Mr Average look silly.

Get into that kitchen and rattle them pots and pans. Babe.

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@Setanta,

Setanta wrote:

Another brainless post from the master of brainless posts, Foofie. What leads you to assume that women, and only women, give toys to children?

I am not assuming that; I only am addressing the thought that if women, not men, gave girls trucks to play with, that might balance the dolls that men might give girls, since I would not expect that many men to value socializing girls to have a mechanical/spatial aptitude.

You may now go back to your rural activities.

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Typical Foofie bullshit. I live in a city of more than 3,000,000 people. You call that rural? What an idiot.

1 Reply

What qualifies a man to talk about an issue like feminism?

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