19
   

What qualifies a man to talk about an issue like feminism?

 
 
aidan
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Sep, 2009 01:49 pm
@Diest TKO,
I've always been interested to read something by a man who supported reproductive choice but was in a situation where he'd gotten a woman pregnant who had decided to terminate the pregnancy which would have resulted in the birth of his child, which he wanted.

As a woman, who has control over my own body and the power to decide to do what I wanted to do when I was pregnant, I always thought, when I'd read about men who either had to pay child support for a child they didn't want or watch a woman abort a child they did want - that it must be very, very difficult to be in such an emotionally vulnerable position and dependent upon someone else's decision-making during that whole process.

It'd be interesting to me to read what a man thinks and feels in a situation such as that.
And how his views in terms of 'choice' would or wouldn't be affected.
spendius
 
  2  
Reply Fri 18 Sep, 2009 01:55 pm
@Diest TKO,
TK--are you contributing to this blog as a feminist friendly male searching for compliments or are you sticking up for us blokes? We have a bad enough hand to play as it is.
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Sep, 2009 02:21 pm
@spendius,
Quote:
She has an ermine coat, a foreign car,
A ten-room flat with a built-in bar.
And she does it all at thirty per,
Believe it, that's the truth, Dear Sir.
Yet five years back, some teacher hick,
Flunked this gal in arithmetic.

ebrown p
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Sep, 2009 02:38 pm
@spendius,
Quote:

Why can't a woman be more like a man?
Men are so honest, so thoroughly square;
Eternally noble, historic'ly fair;
Who, when you win, will always give your back a pat.
Well, why can't a woman be like that?

Why does ev'ryone do what the others do?
Can't a woman learn to use her head?
Why do they do ev'rything their mothers do?
Why don't they grow up- well, like their father instead?
Why can't a woman take after a man?
Men are so pleasant, so easy to please;
Whenever you are with them, you're always at ease.

Would you be slighted if I didn't speak for hours?
<< Of course not!>>
Of course not!

Would you be livid if I had a drink or two?
<<Nonsense.>>

Would you be wounded if I never sent you flowers?
<<Never>>

Well, why can't a woman be like you?
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Sep, 2009 03:18 pm
@ebrown p,
Perish the thought.
0 Replies
 
Diest TKO
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Sep, 2009 03:20 pm
@aidan,
aidan wrote:

I've always been interested to read something by a man who supported reproductive choice but was in a situation where he'd gotten a woman pregnant who had decided to terminate the pregnancy which would have resulted in the birth of his child, which he wanted.

As a woman, who has control over my own body and the power to decide to do what I wanted to do when I was pregnant, I always thought, when I'd read about men who either had to pay child support for a child they didn't want or watch a woman abort a child they did want - that it must be very, very difficult to be in such an emotionally vulnerable position and dependent upon someone else's decision-making during that whole process.

It'd be interesting to me to read what a man thinks and feels in a situation such as that.
And how his views in terms of 'choice' would or wouldn't be affected.

I think both of these topics are explorable, but would have to be mostly speculation. I've never found myself in either situation.

I've thought about both of these scenarios.

T
K
O
Diest TKO
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Sep, 2009 03:27 pm
@spendius,
spendius wrote:

TK--are you contributing to this blog as a feminist friendly male searching for compliments or are you sticking up for us blokes? We have a bad enough hand to play as it is.

These are my options in your mind?

That I'm either fishing for complements I don't need or pleading for sympathy for a bad hand I don't think is all that bad..? If I wanted a complement, I got one in just being offered to write.

T
K
O
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Sep, 2009 03:27 pm
Quote:
I've thought about both of these scenarios.


But they have nothing to do with feminism as a movement.

It's just more ovary stuff. It's talking about people who have something wrong with them. It's pretending that pregnancy isn't chosen. Like it's some accidental happening that could happen to anybody.
aidan
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Sep, 2009 03:29 pm
@Diest TKO,
Quote:
I think both of these topics are explorable, but would have to be mostly speculation. I've never found myself in either situation.

I've thought about both of these scenarios.

Maybe you could find someone to interview - I bet a lot of guys have been in one or the other of those situations.
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Sep, 2009 03:32 pm
@Diest TKO,
Quote:
I got one in just being offered to write.


Well--it was a friend you said. That's no big deal.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Sep, 2009 03:34 pm
@aidan,
Quote:
I bet a lot of guys have been in one or the other of those situations.


What is "a lot". I'm not one for a start.

And anybody who is has likely got his head in a shed and is thus unsuitable for a responsible discussion.
ebrown p
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Sep, 2009 03:38 pm
@Diest TKO,
Quote:
spendius wrote:


TK--are you contributing to this blog as a feminist friendly male searching for compliments or are you sticking up for us blokes? We have a bad enough hand to play as it is.


These are my options in your mind?

That I'm either fishing for complements I don't need or pleading for sympathy for a bad hand I don't think is all that bad..? If I wanted a complement, I got one in just being offered to write.


You know... if you play this right, you might even score a hot feminist check.
aidan
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Sep, 2009 03:44 pm
@spendius,
Quote:
What is "a lot". I'm not one for a start.

Spendius - you're asking me to believe that you don't understand what 'a lot' means? Why would you want to play such a game? You and I both know that you know what I mean when I say 'a lot'. It means 'many'. More than an isolated 'few'.

Quote:
I'm not one for a start.

I'm sincerely happy for you that that's not the case. I can only imagine that it would be emotionally wrenching and heartbreaking- or frustrating to the extreme, depending on how you viewed the pregnancy.

Quote:
And anybody who is has likely got his head in a shed and is thus unsuitable for a responsible discussion.

I disagree. I think it can happen to anyone - even responsible people.

I really do believe that a male can be as vulnerable, if not moreso, than a female in such a situation. It's a situation in which I was glad that I had control. I don't know what it would feel like to be a male who was just along for the ride - essentially in the passenger seat- while someone else drove.
I'd be interested to read about that.
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Sep, 2009 05:29 pm
@aidan,
Quote:
Spendius - you're asking me to believe that you don't understand what 'a lot' means?


No.

I do understand what a "lot" is. It's, say, 1% of a large number and can be used sophistically to lassoo the large number into the bag the 1% are in. To make atypical look typical for political reasons. There are "a lot" of Americans living in England. I met one once. I could tell she was an American because she referred to a soiled diaper rather than a nappy full of ****.

It can be used to make people think there's a hooded rapist in every shadow.

I seek actual numbers. Devious phrases don't interest me.

Quote:
I'm sincerely happy for you that that's not the case.


That's grossly insulting Becks. You make it sound like I was lucky. Luck had nothing to do with it.

Quote:
depending on how you viewed the pregnancy.


That's even worse. A pregnancy is a little mite struggling to live and totally helpless. There's only one way to view that in my opinion and I don't give two fucks about the USSC.

Quote:
I disagree. I think it can happen to anyone - even responsible people.


That's circular. If you disagree your conclusion follows like night follows day. There are no mitigating circumstances. They are assholes.

Quote:
It's a situation in which I was glad that I had control. I don't know what it would feel like to be a male who was just along for the ride - essentially in the passenger seat- while someone else drove.
I'd be interested to read about that.


Control of what?

You Yanks talk about things like that in the abstract. Meeting people for example. Meeting interesting people. Random slurs is another. Only teach science in science classes. No beef. No explanations. Just labels. Self reassuring ones.
Diest TKO
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Sep, 2009 06:44 pm
@ebrown p,
ebrown p wrote:

You know... if you play this right, you might even score a hot feminist check.

A check like money? I write for free... for now.

T
K
Cool
Diest TKO
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Sep, 2009 06:53 pm
@spendius,
spendius wrote:

It's talking about people who have something wrong with them.

Mam, there's something wrong with you... You're pregnant.

spendius wrote:

It's pretending that pregnancy isn't chosen.

It isn't always chosen.

spendius wrote:

Like it's some accidental happening that could happen to anybody.

Well, it can only happen to about half of the Humans on earth, so not "anybody"...

T
K
O
0 Replies
 
ebrown p
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Sep, 2009 07:11 pm
@Diest TKO,
Oops... I guess that is spelled Czech (damn spell checker didn't catch that for some reason).
Diest TKO
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Sep, 2009 09:13 pm
@ebrown p,
ebrown p wrote:

Oops... I guess that is spelled Czech (damn spell checker didn't catch that for some reason).

ha.

T
K
O
0 Replies
 
aidan
 
  1  
Reply Sat 19 Sep, 2009 01:38 am
@spendius,
Quote:
There are "a lot" of Americans living in England.

There are? How many? If you can use 'a lot' in that scenario - I can use 'a lot' in my scenario. If there's one American in every village (which I highly doubt), and you call that 'a lot' - I'm sure there's at least one male in most peoples' circle of acquaintances who has experienced disappointment in terms of the decision of choice a woman made when she was pregnant with his child.

Quote:
I met one once. I could tell she was an American because she referred to a soiled diaper rather than a nappy full of ****.

She wasn't a real American if she referred to a 'soiled' diaper. We say, 'dirty diaper'. We're not sophisticated enough to say 'soiled' instead of 'dirty'.
Quote:

Devious phrases don't interest me.

Well if 'a lot' or 'many' now qualify as devious descriptors, I'm in big trouble.


Quote:
That's grossly insulting Becks. You make it sound like I was lucky. Luck had nothing to do with it.

I didn't attribute or consider causation when I said I was sincerely happy that you haven't had to deal with that sadness. I'm happy you haven't had that sadness in your life - just like I'd be happy for you or anyone else that had never had to experience cancer or any other hardship.

Quote:
That's even worse. A pregnancy is a little mite struggling to live and totally helpless. There's only one way to view that in my opinion and I don't give two fucks about the USSC.

What's with the anti-American propaganda? Abortion is much more commonplace and accepted and less divisively debated in most European countries (including your own, by the way) than it is in America, spendius. America happens to be one of the last holdouts of developed or westernized countries where a significant and vocal percentage of the population espouse your views on it.
Quote:

There are no mitigating circumstances. They are assholes.

How about this scenario: a man and woman are partners. The woman gets pregnant. The man wants the child, is excited to be a father- the woman doesn't want to be a mother at that point in her life. She has an abortion, because it is her body and her life and her right.
And the man agrees with the fact that it's her body and her life and her right - but he wanted that child whose chromosomes were half his.
In what way is he an asshole?
And how does he rectify those two realities.
I'd be interested to read thoughts on that.

Quote:

Control of what?

When and how I became a parent. Because, as the woman, it was happening in my body, and no one could tell me that I couldn't or wouldn't let it happen. I think it would be difficult to be the male in this situation, as compared to being the female.

Quote:
You Yanks talk about things like that in the abstract.

I'm speaking very concretely. I know how much I wanted to be a mother. I can only imagine there are men who have the same feeling about being a father. I'm saying that this is one area in which the man has to be dependent upon the woman to be in agreement with him in order to achieve that. That must make him feel very vulnerable.
Same with childbirth. I've been through it and I've watched other people give birth. Honest to god - I found it easier to go through it than to watch someone else go through it. It makes you feel very helpless and vulnerable to watch someone struggle with something you can't help them with.
I think there could be a lot of interesting angles in terms of pregnancy and childbirth that a male could write about in a feminist blog.


Quote:
You Yanks talk about things like that in the abstract. Meeting people for example. Meeting interesting people. Random slurs is another. Only teach science in science classes. No beef. No explanations.

I take pains not to randomly slur anyone. If I have randomly slurred anyone - I would certainly like to be made aware of it so I can apologize.
Quote:

Just labels. Self reassuring ones.

Yeah - like Brits who lump all Americans together and call us Yanks. Is that supposed to be derogatory by the way? I've always felt proud to be a Yankee. I sort of like being called a yank.

Quote:
It can be used to make people think there's a hooded rapist in every shadow.

I have no idea what this is referring to. I certainly don't have that issue (of believing there's a hooded rapist in every shadow).
If I did - I would be much more safety conscious.

Anyway - Diest - I was serious when I think that a male has an interesting viewpoint in terms of parenting and childbirth as it relates to HIS choices and role and feelings about those.
At this point, I'd find the male perspective more interesting than the female - that's already been done- just about to death.




dagmaraka
 
  2  
Reply Sat 19 Sep, 2009 02:06 am
As feminism evolves and the ideas at its core make it to the mainstream, the concept of masculinity also evolves. There is absolutely no reason why men should not speak out on the "women issues" (what in the world is that anyway?) or feel timid about it (I have two male friends who teach feminism and women in politics at university level -and why not?), and why women should not speak about the role and position of a man. One gender is defined against the other and as such both concern both genders.

Feminism has a bad reputation here in Central Europe - with men and women alike. With women it is a legacy of communism. Everyone had to work, but it has done nothing to lift a traditional burden of house chores and caring for children - leaving women with two full time jobs. It is changing, but very slowly.

What interests me lately is how rather vast social and cultural changes that came with feminism and civil rights movements (other minorities included) in 19th-20th century contribute to redefinition of masculinity. That is inseparable, to me, from feminism. There is an interesting book out that chronicles the evolution of perceptions of manhood:


Waller. R. Newell (What is a Man? 3,000 Years of Wisdom on the Art of Manly Virtue

Description:
At a time when all of America is debating the wayward course of contemporary manhood, one thing has been missing from the conversation: a source to which concerned readers might turn for guidance and inspiration, a path back to the wisdom of our shared tradition of manly virtues.

Missing, that is, until now. In What Is a Man? historian and commentator Waller R. Newell collects three thousand years of the finest and most thought-provoking writings on the subject of manhood. Introduced and placed in context by Newell's incisive and illuminating commentary, each of the eight sections in this volume addresses one aspect of the shared traditions of manliness " from wisdom to chivalry to nobility. From Aristotle on courage to Sir Thomas Malory on love, honor, and chastity; from Shakespeare on leadership to John Cheever on adolescence; from Jane Austen on pride to Theodore Roosevelt on family life " each new voice contributes perspective and authority to this multifaceted exploration of virtue and masculinity. And the final section, “The Invisible Man,” reflects the confusions of modern manhood, addressing issues of violence, media imagery, and the role of the counterculture through commentators as diverse as James Dean, David Foster Wallace, and Kurt Cobain.

An anthology of extraordinary scope and depth, What Is a Man? reminds us all of the relevance of the manly tradition and offers a blueprint for men (and women) eager to uphold the honor of our forefathers' legacy.
 

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