19
   

What qualifies a man to talk about an issue like feminism?

 
 
Wilso
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Sep, 2009 12:49 am
How do you feel about women's rights ?

I like either side of them.

-Groucho Marx
0 Replies
 
aidan
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Sep, 2009 01:01 am
@Diest TKO,
Quote:
Spendi - I asked you a direct question (yes or no) and you failed to answer it.

I asked you a direct question, at least twice and you failed to answer it until I found this:
Quote:
It's interesting. I have been in two relationships where my girlfriend has "given" me her virginity. Based on those experiences (and other second hand stuff) I'd say that (my generation perhaps) the women have a greater fixation on virginity (more specifically girls' virginity) be extraordinary or grail like even. In both of the relationships, their was a HUGE pressure on me because they had selected me. In both cases, I was supposed to acknowledge that I was somehow in debt to them and that my choice in making them my partner was a lesser gesture than theirs.

So I guess this is your indirect answer to my question: your experience of this phenomenon of women placing great value on their virginity is personal and anecdotal? Because somehow I got the idea from what I read earlier on the thread that you were making a more generalized statement that the mores of society were placing the onus of valuing feminine virginity on the woman more so than male virginity on the male and stigmatizing them if they 'gave' it away too easily - if at all -before marriage.

It might be a newer thing with the girls in your own generation, because I know that I felt compelled to lie and say I WASN'T a virgin- he could tell I was I guess and asked me in a surprised voice- I lied and said I wasn't because I was embarrassed that I was and also because I thought he might take it more seriously and STOP if I said I was (he was a very good person - and six years older than me- the sort of person who instead of him feeling like he'd have put a notch in his belt, would have thought of the implications of what it might mean to me!).
When I lost my virginity - I felt like I was too old (19!) and had been left behind and missed that train when it had left the station for everyone else.
I was excited about having sex for the first time, looking forward to it - happy that I'd finally found myself in a situation and with a guy that it felt right with- but I felt more like, 'Okay, FINALLY' and happy to move on to the next step in my life, instead of reluctant to part with some intangible something, that even though I was raised with religion, I had absolutely no guilt about leaving behind.
To me it felt like growing up and I was ready to.

Luckily, it wasn't with another virgin and it didn't hurt- in fact-it was all that I'd hoped it would be.

Quote:
If you believe men are fixated on the oldest cliche in the book, then how do you explain these behaviors? It could certainly be just my experience, but I suspect that it is more common. In both those relationships, this topic returned over and over. Why can't a person's choice in a partner be special every time, not just the first time? I am a man, and by no means obsessed with a woman's virginity or perceived virginal nature. Wasn't implying that men have some obsession about this kind of a red herring?

Well, I have heard the saying, 'I popped her cherry' quite a lot from guys- and in a bragging way.
But no guy ever grilled me about my sexual status before he slept with me.
Even, as I said, the guy who actually was 'deflowering' me-he still doesn't know.
And the guy I eventually married couldn't have cared less.


Diest TKO
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Sep, 2009 01:42 am
@aidan,
Sorry I missed your question aidan. I'm glad that it got answered all the same.

Yes, my opinion is largely based on my anecdotal experience. I do try to gauge what my experiences are when compared to others though. Yes, this is my experience, no I don't think it's an unusual one. Not an unusual one for my generation that is. I can't speak for previous generations.

Speaking on generations, it's possible that so much disconnect about this stems from how our generations differ on the matter and the types of things we experience differently now and then. On a topic like sex and virginity, it's not surprising that we are all over the place because we're all starting from different points in the conversation.

Some things might be cultural in other ways too. I grew up in the Midwest (Springfield, MO), so I was mostly submerged in a very conservative environment. Being that I am speaking from my experiences and can't speak for others, it's perfectly possible that had I grown up elsewhere and had similar circumstances with women and virginity, it could have been completely opposite.

As for those guys who like to talk about "popping cherries" and "deflowering" a girl, I think that's a good example of what I was talking about before: That the types of guys that look for the virgin notch in the belt are usually kind of sleazy.

T
K
O
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Sep, 2009 03:57 am
@Eorl,
Quote:
So, how about that Germaine Greer, hey?....


I've read her books. I have them here. I've read a lot of her journalism as well. I've entered into a correspondence with her. She ended up telling me what TK just did. Roughly. With more style. All the way from Tuscany.

She is a very clever lady and an important cultural figure. Ms Feminism her very self.

"Men are like carrots", she said, "cheap and plentiful and easily cooked."

And so they are.

But basically she took advantage of the progress in industrialisation. A sociological phenomenum. Very dangerous. I accused her of being an agent of the Aussie Secret Service sent here to weaken our cricketers.

But I have some business to attend to.

0 Replies
 
Gala
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Sep, 2009 09:39 am
@Diest TKO,
I think you ought to read a little Germaine Greer as a starter kit-- Anecdotes are fine, but you need a bigger picture.
spendius
 
  0  
Reply Wed 23 Sep, 2009 10:42 am
@Gala,
He wouldn't be able to take it Gala. It blows all his fond sentiments into the wide blue yonder of whimpering subjectivity.

He's a big deal don't you know?

There are no women in any of the jobs I've worked in this last many years. And I know why. They only want equality with the Tristrams as A.A. Gill calls them.

As Spengler said--"Men make destiny, women are destiny."

Anecdotes are not fine. They are irrelevant. There's billions of them. They are trolling. Their only use is to be entertaining.

There are about 150 million females in the US and most of them lose their virginity to someone. So about 150 million chaps have taken one allowing for TK types taking two. Assuming he did. That's how big a deal it is and anybody making out it is something to be talked about, except as entertainment, is the one who has a thing about virginity. Juvenal called it "juddering over Julia".

Feminists can shift for themselves as far as I'm concerned.
Gala
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Sep, 2009 12:52 pm
@spendius,
I'd hoped the topic would get out of the rubble-heap of preciousness, alas, it did not. "Juddering over Julia" sums it up well.
0 Replies
 
Gala
 
  1  
Reply Thu 24 Sep, 2009 06:17 am
@Diest TKO,
The thing about Germaine Greer is, she spares no one. TKO, it would be good to step out of what's familiar to you and do some reading on the subject. Spendius has a clear point, as ruthless as it may sound, about your subjectivity.
Diest TKO
 
  1  
Reply Thu 24 Sep, 2009 03:12 pm
@Gala,
Gala wrote:

The thing about Germaine Greer is, she spares no one. TKO, it would be good to step out of what's familiar to you and do some reading on the subject. Spendius has a clear point, as ruthless as it may sound, about your subjectivity.

I don't object to reading Germaine Greer. I've made no buts about my subjectivity on this subject, spendi's point isn't to reinforce what I've already said, it's to lurk around the thread and flame people.

The discussion on subjectivity is besides the point. Both before, and after reading Greer, my opinion (no matter how it is effected) on this matter will still be subjective. So saying I'm subjective on this matter is obtuse. You are subjective. Spendi is subjective. What of it? All we can do is diversify our experiences so that our subjective contributions are based on the best info possible.

Reading Greer is fine, but it's not requisite to have a competent view. I'll try and find some essays, and I'll report back what I learn and my thoughts.

T
K
O
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Thu 24 Sep, 2009 06:03 pm
@Diest TKO,
Quote:
spendi's point isn't to reinforce what I've already said, it's to lurk around the thread and flame people.


That's easy to say. I am not advising people. I don't know what is going on in people's lives enough to offer them any solutions. Options maybe. There are no easy answers.

No-one lurks around a thread any more or any less than anybody else.

But it is fair enough to cross examine. Your sensitivity on that speaks volumes.

What is the energy source of your subjectivity?

Mine is that I think feminism is weakening our moral, which is to say economic, fibre and with women being the weaker sex they will be the losers if we go tits up. This seems to me to be too high a price to pay so that a few hundred uppity and indignant media females who have rejected the attentions of those whose task it is to look after them for reasons I am too polite to specify, can become famous discussing shagging and its associated ramifications rather than harvests and consumer durables production which is what the millions of the remainder of unfamous ladies are most interested in and to extol the joys of "work" for sisters who have to engage in the sort of demeaning occupations I regularly see them performing.

Something along those lines. I am a proper feminist. I want to stop them needing wellness education.
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Thu 24 Sep, 2009 07:18 pm
@spendius,
So then Spendi, would you agree with my basic principle that codling people weakens them? That the dogooders who decide that others need their help when the others have never asked for help, who decide that other people need to be protected from themselves, that these fools can be rightly labeled as abusers??

aidan
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Sep, 2009 12:06 am
@spendius,
Quote:
Mine is that I think feminism is weakening our moral, which is to say economic, fibre and with women being the weaker sex they will be the losers if we go tits up. This seems to me to be too high a price to pay so that a few hundred uppity and indignant media females who have rejected the attentions of those whose task it is to look after them for reasons I am too polite to specify, can become famous discussing shagging and its associated ramifications rather than harvests and consumer durables production which is what the millions of the remainder of unfamous ladies are most interested in and to extol the joys of "work" for sisters who have to engage in the sort of demeaning occupations I regularly see them performing.


So now a man is here to tell us what we SHOULD be discussing and what we ARE most interested in and what sort of work we DO find demeaning.

Please tell me how you came to this conclusion without personal anecdotes and subjective thought. Only facts and statistics please...

Diest - if you go on that blog and regurgitate a bunch of facts and statistics from Germaine Greer - anyone that's already read might and I say MIGHT because they MIGHT be a woman like me who would scan what you said and say to myself, 'Why the hell am I reading this - why don't I just read Germaine Greer, for goodness sake?'

Some of us actually LIKE to read another person's experience and opinion on a given subject. Especially now, with the internet, when most people do do nothing but do a quick google and cut and paste 'facts'. Anyone can do that now.

What I think would be most interesting, and this is totally my subjective opinion, is a mixture of fact (research your topic to some extent) and then communicate some subjective thought or experience of yourself, your friends, SOMEONE in your life, who has seen it affected by the subject of your topic in some way - allowing that others may have viewed it or been affected in another way.

What I can't deal with reading is stuff like - 'I think this and this happened to me and so this is the way it is....'

I'm finding this thread very interesting myself. First of all, because I've had to think about what a feminist really IS - I know the definition - but what is a feminist REALLY? And then to think about whether I am one or not.
Because I don't think it's a necessarily either/or condition/mindset.
Because guess what (and hallelujah for this FACT) - one can have views that are consistent with various aspects that would be considered feminist and views that aren't and it can happen all within the SAME PERSON!
So what does that person call herself?
And why do we have the need to call anyone anything anymore - if feminism was such a success - why do we still need a name for them? Aside from human or woman who is able to be respected simply for that reason- because she is.

I don't think I'm a feminist personally for myself, because I don't think I've ever needed to be, because I've never felt that I was ever treated differently to a NEGATIVE effect - ever- for my gender. If anything I've felt that I was rewarded for my gender by having people take more care with me (men and women) from my parents to my teachers to my professors to my employers, to the man on the street.
So I don't have to be a feministi my own individual and personal life, because there wasn't any discrimination going on in my personal lif and individual life.
But I see **** all around me that makes me know that I need to stand up for females all around the world and speak against the discrimination they're suffering for their gender. So, in that aspect I'm a feminist.

I was reading a horrible story in the Times yesterday about a single mother and her two disabled children who were terrorized in their neighborhood by a bunch of bullies to the extent that the mother took the disabled daughter (whom she didn't want to leave on her own) and killed her and then committed suicide.

She'd called the police to help her over and over and over again and no response - she felt afraid and vulnerable and as if she and her children were prisoners in their own home.
And my first thought was to wonder if the story would have ended differently if there's been a male in the home.
Is that a feminist thought? I don't know - but I think it's a logical and viable question to ask.

aidan
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Sep, 2009 01:23 am
@aidan,
Quote:
I was reading a horrible story in the Times yesterday about a single mother and her two disabled children who were terrorized in their neighborhood by a bunch of bullies to the extent that the mother took the disabled daughter (whom she didn't want to leave on her own) and killed her and then committed suicide.

She'd called the police to help her over and over and over again and no response - she felt afraid and vulnerable and as if she and her children were prisoners in their own home.
And my first thought was to wonder if the story would have ended differently if there's been a male in the home.
Is that a feminist thought? I don't know - but I think it's a logical and viable question.


The second question that came to my mind is why she only killed her disabled daughter and not her disabled son. She left the son with the grandmother.
Diest TKO
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Sep, 2009 02:14 am
@aidan,
aidan wrote:

So now a man is here to tell us what we SHOULD be discussing and what we ARE most interested in and what sort of work we DO find demeaning.

your sentiment RE: spendi's bigooted rant, is kind of the core of what I was talking about in my original piece: That being a man and speaking on the topic can be like walking on eggshells. If one is too mellow it's pointless, and if one is too direct they are now overstepping their bounds.

Spendi is totally off base, but it's not because he's a man. Your (and my) disgust has nothing to do with gender when you boil it down. His words would have been just as disgusting coming from a woman's mouth.
aidan wrote:

Diest - if you go on that blog and regurgitate a bunch of facts and statistics from Germaine Greer - anyone that's already read might and I say MIGHT because they MIGHT be a woman like me who would scan what you said and say to myself, 'Why the hell am I reading this - why don't I just read Germaine Greer, for goodness sake?'

Nah. Not my style. I'm not the type to make a blog entry and regurgitate. I'm just saying that I have no objection to reading someone's writing. What I was telling Gala, is that my subjective opinion on feminism is not unique. I'm not sure what objective would look like in terms of a person speaking on these topics. Germaine Greer will be subjective for that matter.

My opinion is going to be based on my experiences, and reading Germaine Greer only becomes another experience, it nor reading of any other person will make me any less subjective.
aidan wrote:

Some of us actually LIKE to read another person's experience and opinion on a given subject. Especially now, with the internet, when most people do do nothing but do a quick google and cut and paste 'facts'. Anyone can do that now.

The challenge with a blog or a free essay format is that you are trying to communicate ideas in a engaging way. Some use humor, others shock, and some have audiences that want just numbers and no conjecture whatsoever. The context of audience is important. As seen by the contrast of the audience of A2K vice that of the blog itself, the audience is different. I don't think my essay appealed too much to the A2K audience. The audience that reads the blog are twenty-somethings mostly, and they seemed to get my ideas.

If I've learned anything in this thread so far is that communicating many of these ideas across generations is going to be harder than across genders.
aidan wrote:

What I think would be most interesting, and this is totally my subjective opinion, is a mixture of fact (research your topic to some extent) and then communicate some subjective thought or experience of yourself, your friends, SOMEONE in your life, who has seen it affected by the subject of your topic in some way - allowing that others may have viewed it or been affected in another way.

When I was working as a Wellness Educator, I spent a lot of time on the CDC's website. There is a lot of useful statistics there that we used when we made our materials. The first entry I made was mostly an introduction, but on future topics, I do plan to offer numbers when possible to make some points.
aidan wrote:

What I can't deal with reading is stuff like - 'I think this and this happened to me and so this is the way it is....'

I don't know about the "this is the way it is" but sometimes, the "this is what happened to me" is what is most important, because it takes the topic outside of the theoretical.
aidan wrote:

And why do we have the need to call anyone anything anymore - if feminism was such a success - why do we still need a name for them? Aside from human or woman who is able to be respected simply for that reason- because she is.

To say feminism was a success is to say that the struggle is over. Slow down.

Additionally, I've done thinking about the idea and definition of feminism itself. I've asked myself the question: What is the difference between fighting for equality, and fighting for feminism? So far, my answer is incomplete. I've so far only thought to explore the notion that feminism is not solely the goal to make women and men equal in society, but additionally to make individuals more whole in accepting their masculine and feminine attributes. For the later of the two, I can't call it equality ans much as balance between the two.

I think men should be feminists not only for the support and love for their fellow woman, but because their mind itself has feminine traits, and that part of the mind deserves to be embraced as much as the part that eats beef jerky and yells "woo!"

aidan wrote:

I don't think I'm a feminist personally for myself, because I don't think I've ever needed to be, because I've never felt that I was ever treated differently to a NEGATIVE effect - ever- for my gender. If anything I've felt that I was rewarded for my gender by having people take more care with me (men and women) from my parents to my teachers to my professors to my employers, to the man on the street.

Whether it be negative or positive, being treated differently for reasons of gender is an imbalance.

I hold doors open for people, and I am very gracious when they hold the door for me.

In my opinion, true chivalry is more than showing the ability to kind and polite to one person, but to all.
aidan wrote:

And my first thought was to wonder if the story would have ended differently if there's been a male in the home.
Is that a feminist thought? I don't know - but I think it's a logical and viable question to ask.

It could be. There's a lot of variables here. Too many to reduce down to a single theme. A man in the house may have helped, but also support from family or friends. Your story didn't include a lot of details. That's a really sad story. I hate hearing about people who feel lost like that.

T
K
O
Diest TKO
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Sep, 2009 02:17 am
@aidan,
aidan wrote:

The second question that came to my mind is why she only killed her disabled daughter and not her disabled son. She left the son with the grandmother.

It could be that immediately after killing her daughter she was so stricken with grief and guilt she could not go through with killing her son.

The psychology of murder and suicide might make for a good thread by itself.
K
O
aidan
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Sep, 2009 02:21 am
@Diest TKO,
No, the way she killed herself and her daughter was to set the car in which they sat on fire. Apparently, she did a run-through with her son in the car, but then took him to the grandmother's and killed just herself and her daughter.

The reason I think of this in feminist terms and more than just a run of the mill murder/suicide - which unfortunately happens all too often and seems most often (or maybe this is just my selective memory) to happen in broken homes in which the child is the pawn one parent plays against another- is that I think the whole situation just escalated for this woman to the point she could no longer cope - and I wonder if there was an adult male in the picture if she'd have felt more supported - or if that would have even stopped the bullying - the presence of a 'strong' male figure as opposed to what these people saw as a somewhat defenseless female.

And does that mean I'm not a feminist- because I don't automatically think this woman should have been able to cope as well as a male in this situation?
aidan
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Sep, 2009 02:25 am
@Diest TKO,
Quote:
I don't know about the "this is the way it is" but sometimes, the "this is what happened to me" is what is most important, because it takes the topic outside of the theoretical.

Bingo - in fact I have a picture I'm going to post on a thread that I can't disagree with on logical, factual terms, but when taken out of the theoretical and made personal - it becomes absolutely offensive (in my opinon).

Yes - this is the sort of stuff I would like to be faced with to think about - not charts and data that I've probably already seen. I think you're on the right track.
0 Replies
 
Diest TKO
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Sep, 2009 02:26 am
@aidan,
aidan wrote:

No, the way she killed herself and her daughter was to set the car in which they sat on fire. Apparently, she did a run-through with her son in the car, but then took him to the grandmother's and killed just herself and her daughter.

That throws my guess out the window...
aidan wrote:

The reason I think of this in feminist terms and more than just a run of the mill murder/suicide - which unfortunately happens all to often and seems most often (or maybe this is just my selective memory) to happen in broken homes in which the child is the pawn one parent plays against another- is that I think the whole situation just escalated for this woman to the point she could no longer cope - and I wonder if there was an adult male in the picture if she'd have felt more supported - or if that would have even stopped the bullying - the presence of a 'strong' male figure as opposed to what these people saw as a somewhat defenseless female.

And does that mean I'm not a feminist- because I don't automatically think this woman should have been able to cope as well as a male in this situation?

I'm not going to insist that you are or are not anything. If you aren't into the title, what would be the point of trying to put it on you?

T
K
O
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Sep, 2009 07:11 am
@hawkeye10,
Quote:
So then Spendi, would you agree with my basic principle that codling people weakens them?


Obviously. Of course. Domestic pets would be unable to survive in the environment they evolved in. Which is to say that they are denatured.

Military training is specifically designed to undo the ravages of motherly coddling. And to do it fast. The rest of us can have a sentimental orgy of self-righteousness on the backs of those who have undergone it. And any careful study of those orgies will usually expose a self interest.

In don't think I would go so far as to label all do-gooders as abusers but a fair proportion of them are.
0 Replies
 
Gala
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Sep, 2009 08:47 am
@Diest TKO,
Quote:
The discussion on subjectivity is besides the point. Both before, and after reading Greer, my opinion (no matter how it is effected) on this matter will still be subjective. So saying I'm subjective on this matter is obtuse. You are subjective. Spendi is subjective. What of it? All we can do is diversify our experiences so that our subjective contributions are based on the best info possible.


TKO, once again, you have missed the point and directed yet another topic to you. You need to get some reading under your belt on the subject. Spendius is subjective, but well-read, and he doesn't take himself too serously. He can back up his arguments with references from ancient Rome to Germaine Greer and a lot more in between.

Quote:
Reading Greer is fine, but it's not requisite to have a competent view. I'll try and find some essays, and I'll report back what I learn and my thoughts.


I suggest you read G. Greer, because it may, or may not, snap you out of your precious viewpoint on this subject. At least you will see a bigger perspective, instead of everything revolving around you.
 

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