33
   

Outrageous

 
 
ehBeth
 
  3  
Reply Wed 9 Sep, 2009 08:48 pm
@Robert Gentel,
This article was featured on the aldaily home page the other day. Made me think of this and other similar threads.

Too Many Kooks

Quote:
As things stand, no blow seems low enough, no criticism off limits, if the president happens to be from the other side. The pursuit of happiness has given way to the pursuit of picayune point-scoring.
ehBeth
 
  3  
Reply Wed 9 Sep, 2009 08:56 pm
@ehBeth,
even Laura Bush has checked in on the subject

Quote:
Bush said it is unfair that Obama has been labelled a "socialist" by critics and is disappointed with the strongly partisan nature of American politics.

"We've seen that for the last eight years, certainly, and we're still seeing it. That's just a fact of life," Bush said, noting that her husband faced the same problems.

"He was disappointed that that was not the way it worked out in Washington. I'm sure President Obama didn't expect it to be that way [either]. ... All of us need to do what we can to come together on issues," Bush says in the interview.

National Post
Merry Andrew
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Sep, 2009 09:00 pm
@ehBeth,
I always did say that Laura was the only one with any brains in that family.
0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  2  
Reply Fri 11 Sep, 2009 04:25 pm
@Robert Gentel,
word. This is all it is anymore... The substance of authentic debate of issues has evaporated. Of course, I guess we all had this figured out a few years ago...you just wish people would stop falling prey to the converse of the same prejudices they decry...
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Fri 11 Sep, 2009 04:44 pm
@Robert Gentel,
Quote:
Every time the president changes I hear ideologues going on about just how unprecedented the very routine political attacks are, they condemn the political attacks and conveniently forget that their side used the same playbook while they were running the opposition.


Oh, did I mention at some point that the behavior the Republicans are engaging in is 'unprecedented?' I don't believe I did.

I think there's a big difference between accusing someone of using kids as a prop (what Bush senior did) and accusing someone of trying to indoctrinate our kids with socialism (what Obama was accused of doing). I do not believe these are the same sorts of complaints.

You state:

Quote:
Republicans have said that they'd be fine with him talking to students if it weren't political in nature and before this all started there were elements to the event that could have become politicized.


The fact that you are willing to swallow such an obviously bullshit line as this is a little troubling, Robert. The attacks against Obama haven't really centered around logical arguments, but rather are character attacks against him. Here's what Greer (the FL GOP head who started this dustup) said about it:

Quote:
"As the father of four children, I am absolutely appalled that taxpayer dollars are being used to spread President Obama's socialist ideology," Greer said.

"The idea that school children across our nation will be forced to watch the president justify his plans ... is not only infuriating, but goes against beliefs of the majority of Americans, while bypassing American parents through an invasive abuse of power."


It's simply not the equivalent of accusing someone of playing politics before an election. It just isn't. It's a much worse accusation, and I'm surprised that you can't recognize this.

Quote:

I've never said the Republicans aren't doing anything wrong Cyclo. Why do things have to be so darn black or white to you?


No, you've just repeatedly tried to excuse the Republican behavior by spending a lot of time attempting to show that the Dems are equally guilty. That's the functional equivalent of saying that they aren't doing anything wrong, in politics. Maybe I get this impression due to the fact that you seem to be spending most of your time lately, when it comes to posts involving politics, attacking those who are attacking the Republican party; do you just like the underdog, or what?

You ought to admit that there is quite a bit of validity to the complaints re: the right-wing treatment of Obama over the last year. Even if the Dems are equally guilty (which I don't agree with, but whatever), I'd love to see you condemn some of the bullshit flying around from the other side.

Cycloptichorn
Robert Gentel
 
  4  
Reply Fri 11 Sep, 2009 05:19 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Cycloptichorn wrote:
No, you've just repeatedly tried to excuse the Republican behavior by spending a lot of time attempting to show that the Dems are equally guilty.


I've not once tried to excuse their behavior Cyclo. I'm trying to advocate for more edifying political discussion. For a long time, able2know has been my place to find it (amid the partisan nonsense that has always been here) but it's been harder for me recently (where the **** is nimh when you need him?).

My goal is to point out the hypocrisy of the selective outrage, and hopefully get some more meaningful discussion. But I think I learned my lesson, instead of trying to convince people who aren't interested in that level of discourse I should just seek out those who are.

So now I just got to figure out how to get the nimhs, the Freeducks, the sozobes, the Thomas', and the engineers to drop in more often, instead of trying to convince the ebrowns, the cyclos and the kuvazs to be who they aren't.

Quote:
That's the functional equivalent of saying that they aren't doing anything wrong, in politics. Maybe I get this impression due to the fact that you seem to be spending most of your time lately, when it comes to posts involving politics, attacking those who are attacking the Republican party; do you just like the underdog, or what?


No, there just aren't a lot of conservatives here, if they were filling the politics discussions with such things I'd be saying the same thing to them. The few who are in politics are folk I've long given up on trying to discuss politics with and they also tend to frequent a handful of old threads (like those that Ican and Foxfyre seem holed up in) I never go to.

Quote:
You ought to admit that there is quite a bit of validity to the complaints re: the right-wing treatment of Obama over the last year.


Sure, but I don't learn anything from the manufactured outrage about it. All the threads about just how awful and outrageous they are don't teach me a thing.

You and ebrown are examples I am willing to name, because you are both very intelligent and very well informed politically. I could learn more from both of you than I do when you guys spend all your time talking about the other side's gaffes (or bullshit, whatever you want to call it).

So I'm tired of the one-way outrage, it is something that annoys me (probably in a similar way to the way my high horse annoys you). It has nothing at all to do with excusing Republicans, but with wanting more edifying political discussion than repeating "Republicans suck" ad nauseum.

Quote:
Even if the Dems are equally guilty (which I don't agree with, but whatever), I'd love to see you condemn some of the bullshit flying around from the other side.


Here: I condemn the bullshit that Republicans have tossed around. It is insipid and stupid.

But that's all I can really get out of that. I don't want to do that all day every day and focusing on their retards never teaches me anything. But when a roger comes along and expresses some reasonable reservations about Obama's health care plan I can think and learn something and consider positions I had that might need a bit more introspection.

But these days everywhere I go for political news and debate is a joke. CNN is selling out. They've become fanboys of Twitter and Facebook and are doing ridiculously insipid "news" (for example their weekly game of Kevin Bacon, which is completely retarded to be on a news site).

Other sites I go to that have user-generated content are much worse than able2know, and tend to be a solid hive mind that spends their time making jokes about what they've all decided they don't like (I'm looking at you reddit, digg etc). I don't discuss politics in the brick and mortar world, because of the old and very true adage that you don't discuss religion and politics in polite company, as well as because most people don't tend to be nearly as interested as I am. The discussions I have offline are full of ridiculous claims that I can't just debunk with a link, the communication is not asynchronous so if an ass wants to just shout then nobody else gets a turn.

So I'm pretty bummed, I used to get a lot more out of online discussions on abuzz and here, but don't really have a lot left to turn to. I'm stuck with a couple of smaller blogs and their article comments now. What does a guy have to do to get some decent political discussion going? I'm almost giving up till we make the groups feature of a2k again, so that I can make a sane enclave for this kind of thing.

That's what it is about to me, it has nothing to do with defending Republicans. That kind of thinking (where it has to be pro this and against that all the time) is exactly what is bothering the heck out of me.

I hesitated before fighting for it here, it's certainly not going to make me any friends in the partisan crowd, and it sucks to know that I'm irritating folks like you as much as you have been irritating me but it is what it is. I miss intelligent discussions about policy, and am sick to death of the "gotcha" that passes for political discussion everywhere.

It's bullshit, I'm sick of it. I want something that teaches me something, not just something that makes me laugh at Republicans gone wild. I get plenty of that everywhere else I turn.
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  0  
Reply Fri 11 Sep, 2009 05:24 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Cycloptichorn wrote:


No, you've just repeatedly tried to excuse the Republican behavior by spending a lot of time attempting to show that the Dems are equally guilty. That's the functional equivalent of saying that they aren't doing anything wrong, in politics.
Equivalent only if you posit that the Democrats themselves are doing nothing wrong. Is that your position?

Cycloptichorn wrote:
...Maybe I get this impression due to the fact that you seem to be spending most of your time lately, when it comes to posts involving politics, attacking those who are attacking the Republican party; do you just like the underdog, or what?
I don't think Robert has "attacked" you or anyone. Instead he has attempted to note that excess in rhetorical criticism by the minority and self-serving but evasive defenses of plans and policy by the majority are the rule, not the exception in politics - and that both sides have behaved similarly in majority and minority roles.

Cycloptichorn wrote:
.You ought to admit that there is quite a bit of validity to the complaints re: the right-wing treatment of Obama over the last year. Even if the Dems are equally guilty (which I don't agree with, but whatever), I'd love to see you condemn some of the bullshit flying around from the other side.
Cycloptichorn
Apparently you believe that Robert has lost his credentials or credibility by criticizing the excess defensiveness and partisanship of some commentators here, perhaps including yourself. Do you believe you have been consistently objective and fair in your criticisms? I don't.

You demonstrate the habit of selecting the most intemperate actions of some on the right and painting everyone who doesn't agree with you with that brush. For example you cite above that someone complained that Obama's talk to the schoolchildren would "taint" the children with Obama's socialist ideas. The truth is the main criticism was all directed, not at the fact of his talk to schoolchildren, but instead at the stupid, fawning "lesson plan" published by the Department of Education. Moreover the lesson plan really was a stupidity and was quickly retracted by the administration. The furor quickly died down after that. Your mischaracterization of your political opponents is rather transparent and occasionally quite deceptive.
Cycloptichorn
 
  3  
Reply Fri 11 Sep, 2009 05:39 pm
@georgeob1,
George, please don't act as if the fact that you use interesting language somehow elevates you above the bullshit fray; your unwillingness to back up your arguments with evidence puts you solidly in the ring with the rest of us being criticized. Your posts advance your opinion but do not educate or provide a logical structure to argue against.

And, when you state,

Quote:
The truth is the main criticism was all directed not at the fact of his talk to schoolchildren but instead at the stupid fawning "lesson plan" published by the Department of Education.


This is a pure lie and a great example of what I'm talking about.

Did national Republican leaders loudly complain about the 'lesson plans?' Hell no, they loudly called Obama a socialist and claimed he was 'indoctrinating' kids by speaking to them! This is what caused the controversy, not some stupid disagreement over a lesson plan.

Part of the reason that the shrillest and most intemperate voices on your side tend to be identified as the leaders and prevailing opinions in your party is because the reasonable ones - and I'm willing to put you in this category - don't do **** about it. They agree with and support the shrillness. The elected leaders of the Republican party have done extremely little to moderate the debate, and why would they?

-----

Robert,

I will think carefully about what you have written, and in respect of your wishes, will attempt to elevate my discussion to more substantive matters.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
glitterbag
 
  2  
Reply Fri 11 Sep, 2009 07:57 pm
I may not have gone back far enough on this thread to see if anyone had any thoughts on Joe Wilson the Rep. from South Carolina...if it has already been expressed, I apologize in advance. I was shocked to hear the Congressman scream "you lie" to the President when Obama stated that there would be no coverage for undocumented workers. This has never happened to any other President EVER.....the Representative must have thought he was at a town hall meeting.

Wilson reluctantly apologized the following day, claiming he became just too emotional. I don't think it was a case of exploding outrage to protect the American people, I think it was a cynical and calculated attempt to further lower the bar on civil discourse. The reason I believe it was calculated, is because I also believe (lets assume that Wilson is not a racist, OK) that he knew he would be looked at as a hero to those who are racist and cannot believe that the new President is bi-racial. Sadly, there are many who see this as the only real issue, Obama's racial make-up.

Today I borrowed my neighbor's copy of the AARP Bulletin. AARP explains it's views on the health-care debate and attempts to weed the fiction out of the facts. Anyone interested in checking it out call go to http://bulletin.aarp.org. Those of you unfamiliar with AARP need to know it is the American Association of Retired People, and they are very helpful to those both pre and post retirement. The expose many scams targeted against seniors as well as those targeted against all-age groups' 401K's.

Personally I find some of the articles slightly conservative, but I am conservative when it comes to money.
0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  1  
Reply Sat 12 Sep, 2009 08:25 am
Hooray for Craven and Cyclo!!!! wooo hooo! Sometimes, I would question the prevailing liberal opinion just because it was largely unquestioned here, and sometimes as fringe-y as the most ridiculous conservative opinions...too bad I wasn't knowledgeable enough to be useful in that practice. And, my own spikes in unintentional partisanship clouded sincere attempts to help others see THEIR unintentional partisanship...haha. ("Hey, let me put on my coke-bottles, and lead you out of this morass...")

My personal opinions spread pretty evenly across the aisle. It's heartening to see someone as well-read and thoughtful as Craven questioning from a conservative viewpoint, even though he doesn't espouse conservative ideals. His patient, logical, dispassionate method has a way of making a person (so often ME) step back and re-evaluate their positions. Nimh (with graphs and stats) and Dys (through HEAVY sarcasm and tongue-in-cheekism Razz ) have the same deeply valuable quality. It's the coolest type of political dialogue.
0 Replies
 
mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Sat 12 Sep, 2009 02:19 pm
This is interesting.

The WH waited till today to acknowledge that Joe Wilson was right, at least partly.

http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2009/09/11/2065287.aspx

Quote:
The White House tonight is providing the below clarification on what the president's health-care proposals would mean when it comes to the issue of illegal immigrants.

The question, as we all know, arises from the Wilson "You lie" outburst, and the core claim that notwithstanding specific bill language barring illegal immigrants from participating in the "exchange," as a practical matter, there is no way of verifying the citizenship of applicants -- which is the current state of play. Republicans say that then means illegal immigrants would end up being enrolled in plans -- bill language or no bill language.

Today, for the first time as far as we know, the administration is backing a provision that would require proof of citizenship before someone could enroll in a plan selected on the exchange.

Here, the administration also concedes that hospitals would be compensated with public funds for the care of undocumented immigrants.


So the WH is admitting that there was nothing in any plan to verify citizenship.
That would have allowed illegals to enroll in the health care plans being bandied about.

Quote:
Undocumented immigrants would not be able to buy private insurance on the exchange. Those who are lawfully present in this country would be able to participate.

Undocumented immigrants would be able to buy insurance in the non-exchange private market, just as they do today. That market will shrink as the exchange takes hold, but it will still exist and will be subject to reforms such as the bans on pre-existing conditions and caps.

Verification will be required when purchasing health insurance on the exchange. One option is the SAVE program (Systematic Alien Verification for Entitlements) which states currently use to make sure that undocumented immigrants don't participate in safety-net programs for which they are ineligible.

There would be no change in the law that requires emergency rooms to treat people who need emergency care, including undocumented immigrants. There is already a federal grant program that compensates states for emergency room costs associated with treatment of undocumented immigrants, a provision sponsored by a Republican lawmaker.
FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Mon 14 Sep, 2009 09:38 am
@mysteryman,
What part was Joe Wilson right about?
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Mon 14 Sep, 2009 10:42 am
@FreeDuck,
The part about the president's deliberate deception.
FreeDuck
 
  3  
Reply Mon 14 Sep, 2009 10:53 am
@georgeob1,
georgeob1 wrote:

The part about the president's deliberate deception.

I don't see how you get there.
Advocate
 
  0  
Reply Mon 14 Sep, 2009 11:27 am
@FreeDuck,
George is obviously right in there with the truthers, birthers, teabaggers, et al.
FreeDuck
 
  3  
Reply Mon 14 Sep, 2009 11:29 am
@Advocate,
I don't think that's fair at all, Advocate. Quite the contrary, actually.
revel
 
  1  
Reply Mon 14 Sep, 2009 12:38 pm
@mysteryman,
Correct me if I am wrong, but don't clarification mean clearing up something already stated?
0 Replies
 
Advocate
 
  1  
Reply Mon 14 Sep, 2009 12:54 pm
@FreeDuck,
FreeDuck wrote:

I don't think that's fair at all, Advocate. Quite the contrary, actually.


How is he different?
dyslexia
 
  2  
Reply Mon 14 Sep, 2009 12:59 pm
@FreeDuck,
FreeDuck wrote:

georgeob1 wrote:

The part about the president's deliberate deception.

I don't see how you get there.
me either.
0 Replies
 
dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Mon 14 Sep, 2009 01:00 pm
@Advocate,
Advocate wrote:

George is obviously right in there with the truthers, birthers, teabaggers, et al.
typical advocate kneejerk.
0 Replies
 
 

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