3
   

Darwinists: Persisting despite the evidence

 
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Mon 25 May, 2009 06:00 pm
We went all through the Mount St. Helen's BS with the member "real life" a few years ago. Gunga, like rl, simply hasn't the understanding of chemistry to "get" the implications of the potassium-argon dating method, nor the honesty to confront their ignorance. What i found hilarious about Austin is that when he's done science for his university degrees, he has no quibble with standard geo-chemical dating methods at all; but when he's being a shill for the creationists, he uses the knowledge he gained in getting his degrees not only to lie, but to make his lies more plausible. I am reminded of that clown from Australia (don't recall the name), who when writing for publication assumes a planetary age in the billions of years, and who when writing for the creationists totally supports a young earth creationist chronology. Both of them are well enough educated that they cannot avoid the charge of wilfully lying about geology, and the only reason for them to do so is the money they earn as shills and lecturers on the creationist rubber chicken circuit.

I'm not surprised that people like Gunga and rl don't get it. I'm also not surprised that that doesn't discourage them from making extravagant claims which they are completely incapable of supporting.
0 Replies
 
rosborne979
 
  0  
Reply Mon 25 May, 2009 06:10 pm
@farmerman,
farmerman wrote:
Ive told GUNGASNAKE several times that Austin is a sham and a fraud who has tried to perp many errors onto (mostly) the general population.

Gunga doesn't want him to be a fraud though. And that's all that matters (to Gunga).
0 Replies
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Mon 25 May, 2009 06:30 pm
@spendius,
spendius wrote:
Quote:
I'm sorry Dave. I must have missed your questions.
If you will direct me to them I will try to provide answers.


Here thay r, Spendius:
" These q's r addressed to each of Gunga n Spendius:

1. How old is the Earth ?

2. How did Man begin to inhabit the Earth ?

3. Where did Man come from ?

4. How old is Man ?

If these r too many questions for u,
then just answer however many of them either of u wish to answer. "
0 Replies
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Mon 25 May, 2009 06:40 pm
@gungasnake,
gungasnake wrote:
Quote:
["do u agree..."] No. There are so many problems with these dating methods
that there's no real way to pick a place to start.

The Mount St. Helen's problem is just one of a myriad.

Do u believe that a good place to start
is to re-visit Mt. St. Helens and replicate Austin 's test
with a less controversial degree of care as to the integrity of the testing process?





David
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Mon 25 May, 2009 07:42 pm
@OmSigDAVID,
Asking gunga for technical information about a subject in which he has no knowledge or basis of opinion is like asking a parakeet to summarize Catton.
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Mon 25 May, 2009 08:46 pm
@farmerman,
Farmerman the man in another thread on ghosts had stated that this life need to be just a training ground for the next as otherwise the universe would have no meaning.

He seem to be of the opinion that the universe is under some obligation to him to be structure in a manner to meet his emotional needs and as such no amount of facts or logic or commonsense or science is going to convince him that there is not some big daddy behind the scene.

There is a poem or part of one that go something like this, the man said to the universe I exist and the universe reply I am aware of your existent however that fact place me under no obligation to you.

Gungasnake for some reason think that the universe must meet his needs and it is a complete waste of time dealing with such a man.
0 Replies
 
gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Mon 25 May, 2009 09:06 pm
@OmSigDAVID,
Again you're talking about myriad problems. Varve dating showed the Mt. St. Helens eruption to have taken place thousands of years ago as well.

As to Potassium/Argon dating, there are a number of cases in which lava from eruptions in the last thousand years or so have dated to millions of years:

http://www.creationism.org/articles/swenson1.htm
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Mon 25 May, 2009 10:24 pm
@gungasnake,

Gunga, how can u support the proposition
that the nazis or the commies woud not have gone on the rampage
in the absence of evolutionary theory ?


`
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Mon 25 May, 2009 11:46 pm
@gungasnake,
The inconsistencies and lies just keep coming. WHO used varves to date the Mt ST Helens Eruption of 1980? (Maybe some Creationist asshole trying to get you to believe that this is the way real science works?)
VARVES are part of a group of cyclic sedimentation mechanisms that include other sed and depositional types (cf "tidalite or rhythmite. A varve is a unique type of deposit found in very limited areas , primarily during the Pleistocene but showing up in earlier glacial sequences. Pleistocene varves can often be dated by counting the cyclic layers(However, no claim is ever made that varves can be dated in all cases, thats just bullshit). A varve is eposited win a margin of a glacial lake where seasonal meltwaters GENTLY carry sediments . In spring and summer, meltwaters are more turbid and therefore carry more coarse sediments. In the later season, the water, less turbid because of freeze up, deposits only very fine particles. (Scales descriptors by Wentworth;Lidden; or Hjulstrom). VArves can frequently fall out of this cyclic depositional manner. Only by careful correlation with the deposits terminus and temporal extent of deposition can a varve be assessed as to whether its a semi annual event or one of another time scale (cf rhythmites which show depositional sequences from DAILY tidal cycles. (The Hindostan whetstones of Orange County Indiana are an example of a rhythmite laminae sequence,-I used to take students on mid US field trips to see such deposits that were mined in the 1800s for sharpening stones used by knife manufacturers)
DATING Mt ST Helens eruption by looking at varves is just ridiculous because we can tell cataclysmic depositional and erosional events as compared to quiet seasonal events. I cant imagine someone being so stupid as to confuse. Volcanoes, (Like Kilohea, which has been erupting continuously for about 20 years, WILL deposit a cyclic fine ash layer in response to its own eruptive pulses, But these are nowhere a "yearly or pure cyclic event that can be compared to an annual or daily cycle".

So confusing 'varves' rom Mt ST Helens is certainly not a main stream geology event (Unless of course the Spirit lake deposits have a varve component that results from annual glacial meltwater . Im sure (not having seen the deposits) that a HUUUGE deposit of volcanic outwash and water borne ash forming a thick deposit that overwhelmed the Spirit Lake drainage system, ANY reasonably competent geology student (2nd year post sed strat courses) could tell the difference if dropped there by parachute without any resources other than their yes and a drill rig.

SO, once again, in an effort to conflate data and by inference provide criticism of how geologists work, gunga has , once again nailed himself to a slab of untruth and lack of knowledge about a rather unique form of deposition.

As far as the K/Ar data and calibration of samples and analyzing past erupive deposits, a competent field geologist will look at the interconnection and overlap of successive deposits and the ash layers from successive eruptions. We dont EVER go around taking K/Ar samples without understanding their sedimentological significance. SCience just aint that dumheaded as gungasnake wants you to believe.

Im not saying that mistakes havent ever been made, but these are usually (lets say always) corrected by successive sampling and reanalyses of the deposits by other geologists whose filed work carried in from another direction.

Getting data of any significance from a "CREATIONIST" website is like being sold a "Katrina" used car by an "honest internet car salesman". Ill go visit the site to see if theres anything humorous therein.
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Mon 25 May, 2009 11:59 pm
Gungas ignorance of radiometric dating is not he alone. There are great numbers of "The faithful" who are kept ignorant and fed bullshit by their CREATION SCIENTIST MENTORS. SOme Christians who are also scientists , like the author of this attachhed paper, are actually embarassed about the silliness that one or two CREATION SCIENTISTS have been involved in (like Dr Austin and Humphreys) in the name of their Evangelical Religions. They knowingly distort and conolute the real science and develop scads of these websites that attempt to discount science. When confronted by someone reasonably competent in the field, the Creationists look like what they are, snake oil salesmen and "Liars for JEsus"

http://www.asa3.org/ASA/resources/Wiens.html

You see , Wiens has taken the time to put down most of the problems that we have with the bogus work guys like AUstin are perping on the unknowing.
0 Replies
 
gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 May, 2009 05:27 am
@OmSigDAVID,
Evolution was the major philosophical cornerstone of naziism and communism. It all starts with viewing your neighbor as a meat byproduct of random events as opposed to viewing him as a fellow child of God. At that point, things are possible which never were possible previously.

From Sir Arthur Keith's "Evolution and Ethics":


Chapter 3

The Behavior of Germany Considered from an Evolutionary Point of View in 1942

VISITORS TO GERMANY IN 1934 FOUND AN emotional storm sweeping through masses of the people, particularly the more educated. The movement had much in common with a religious revival. The preacher in this case was Adolf Hitler; his doctrine was, and is, tribalism; he had stirred in the emotional depths of the German people those long-dormant tribal feelings which find release and relief in mutual service; men and women who had been leading selfish lives or were drifting aimlessly were given a new purpose in life: service to their country the Third Reich. It is worth noting that Hitler uses a double designation for his tribal doctrine National Socialism: Socialism standing for the good side of the tribal spirit (that which works within the Reich); aud Nationalism for the ethically vicious part, which dominates policy at and outside the German frontiers.

The leader of Germany is an evolutionist not only in theory, but, as millions know to their cost, in the rigor of its practice. For him the national "front" of Europe is also the evolutionary "front"; he regards himself, and is regarded, as the incarnation of the will of Germany, the purpose of that will being to guide the evolutionary destiny of its people. He has brought into

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modern life the tribal and evolutionary mentality of prehistoric times. Hitler has confronted the statesmen of the world with an evolutionary problem of an unprecedented magnitude. What is the world to do with a united aggressive tribe numbering eighty millions!

We must not lose sight of the purpose of our visit to Germany; it was to see how far modern evolutionary practice can provide us with a scientific basis for ethical or moral behavior. As a source of information concerning Hitler's evolutionary and ethical doctrines I have before me Mein Kampf, extracts from The Times covering German affairs during the last twenty years, and the monthly journal R.F.C. (Racio Political Foreign Correspondenee), published by the German Bureau for Human Betterment and Eugenics and circulated by that bureau for the enlightenment of anthropologists living abroad. In the number of that journal for July 1937, there appears in English the text of a speech given by the German Fuhrer on January 30, 1937, in reply to a statement made by Mr. Anthony Eden that "the German race theory" stood in the way of a common discussion of European problems. Hitler maintained his theory would have an opposite effect; "it will bring about a real understanding for the first time." "It is not for men," said the Fuhrer, "to discuss the question of why Providence created different races, but rather to recognize that it punishes those who disregard its work of creation." I may remark incidentally that in this passage, as in many others, the German Fuhrer, like Bishop Barnes and many of our more intellectual clergy, regards evolution as God's mode of creation. God having created races, it is therefore "the noblest and most sacred duty for each racial species of mankind to preserve the purity of the blood which God has given it." Here we have expounded the perfectly sound doctrine of evolutionary isolation; even as an ethical doctrine it should not be condemned. No German must be guilty of the "greatest racial sin" that of bringing the fruits of hybridity into the world. The reproductive "genes" which circulate within the frontiers of Germany must be kept uncontaminated, so that they may work out the racial destiny of the German people without impediment. Hitler is also a eugenist. Germans who suffer from

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hereditable imperfections of mind or of body must be rendered infertile, so that "the strong may not be plagued by the weak." Sir Francis Galton, the founder of eugenics, taught a somewhat similar evolutionary doctrine namely, that if our nation was to prosper we must give encouragement to the strong rather than to the weak; a saving which may be justified by evolution, but not by ethics as recognized and practiced by civilized peoples. The liberties of German women are to be sacrificed; they must devote their activities to their households, especially to the sacred duty of raising succeeding generations. The birth rate was stimulated by bounties and subsidies so that the German tribe might grow in numbers and in strength. In all these matters the Nazi doctrine is evolutionist.

Hitler has sought on every occasion and in every way to heighten the national consciousness of the German people or, what is the same thing, to make them racially conscious; to give them unity of spirit and unity of purpose. Neighborly approaches of adjacent nations are and were repelled; the German people were deliberately isolated. Cosmopolitanism, liberality of opinion, affectation of foreign manners and dress were unsparingly condemned. The old tribal bonds (love of the Fatherland, feeling of mutual kinship), the bonds of "soil and blood," became "the main plank in the National Social program." "Germany was for the Germans" was another plank. Foreign policy was "good or bad according to its beneficial or harmful effects on the German folk now or hereafter." "Charity and humility are only for home consumption" a statement in which Hitler gives an exact expression of the law which limits sympathy to its tribe. "Humanitarianism is an evil . . . a creeping poison." "The most cruel methods are humane if they give a speedy victory" is Hitler's echo of a maxim attributed to Moltke. Such are the ways of evolution when applied to human affairs.

I have said nothing about the methods employed by the Nazi leaders to secure tribal unity in Germany methods of brutal compulsion, bloody force, and the concentration camp. Such methods cannot be brought within even a Machiavellian system of ethics, and yet may be justified by their evolutionary result.

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Even in that result we may harbor a doubt: can unity obtained by such methods be relied on to endure?

There are other aspects of Nazi policy which raise points which may be legitimate subjects of ethical debate. In recent years British men of science have debated this ethical problem: an important discovery having been made a new poison gas, for example is it not the duty of the discoverer to suppress it if there is a possibility of its being used for an evil purpose? My personal conviction is that science is concerned wholly with truth, not with ethics. A man of science is responsible for the accuracy of his observations and of his inferences, not for the results which may follow therefrom. Under no circumstances should the truth be suppressed; yet suppression and distortion of the truth is a deliberate part of Nazi policy. Every anthropologist in Germany, be he German or Jew, was and is silenced in Nazi Germany unless the Hitlerian racial doctrine is accepted without any reservation whatsoever. Authors, artists, preachers, and editors are undone if they stray beyond the limits of the National Socialist tether. Individual liberty of thought and of its expression is completely suppressed. An effective tribal unity is thus attained at the expense of truth. And yet has not the Church in past times persecuted science just in this Hitlerian way? There was a time, and not so long ago, when it was dangerous for a biologist to harbor a thought that clashed in any way with the Mosaic theory of creation.

No aspect of Hitler's policy proclaims the antagonism between evolution and ethics so forcibly as his treatment of the Jewish people in Germany. So strong are the feelings roused that it is difficult for even science to approach the issues so raised with an unclouded judgment. Ethically the Hitlerian treatment of the Jews stands condemned out of hand. Hitler is cruel, but I do not think that his policy can be explained by attributing it to a mere satisfaction of a lust, or to a search for a scapegoat on which Germany can wreak her wrath for the ills which followed her defeat of 1918. The Church in Spain subjected the Jews to the cruelty of the Inquisition, but no one ever sought to explain the Church's behavior by suggesting that she had a

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lust for cruelty which had to be satisfied. The Church adopted the Inquisition as a policy; it was a means of securing unity of mind in her flock. Hitler is an uncompromising evolutionist, and we must seek for an evolutionary explanation if we are to understand his actions. When the Huguenots fled to Germany they mingled their "genes" with those of their host and disappeared as an entity. The Jews are made of other stuff: for two thousand years, living amid European communities, they have maintained their identity; it is an article of their creed, as it is of Hitler's, to breed true. They, too, practice an evolutionary doctrine. Is it possible for two peoples living within the same frontiers, dwelling side by side, to work out harmoniously their separate evolutionary destinies? Apparently Hitler believes this to be impossible; we in Britain and in America believe it to be not only possible, but also profitable.

It must not be thought that in seeking to explain Hitler's actions I am seeking to justify them. The opposite is the case. I have made this brief survey of public policy in modern Germany with a definite object: to show that Dr. Waddington is in error when he seeks to place ethics on a scientific basis by a knowledge of evolutionary tendencies and practice.

Chapter 4

Human Life: Its Purpose or Ultimate End

IN THE COURSE OF GATHERING INFORMATION concerning man's morality and the part it has played and is playing in his evolution, I found it necessary to provide space for slips which were labeled "Life: Its Ultimate and Proximate Purposes." Only those who have devoted some special attention to this matter are aware of the multitude of reasons given for the appearance of man on earth. Here I shall touch on only a few of them; to deal with all would require a big book. The reader may exclaim: Why deal with any of them! What has ultimate purpose got to do with ethics and evolution! Let a man with a clearer head and a nimbler pen than mine reply. He is Edward Carpenter, who wrote Civilization: Its Cause and Cure (1889).

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It is from the sixteenth edition (1923) I am to quote, p. 249:

If we have decided what the final purpose or Life of Man is, then we may say that what is good for that purpose is finally "good" and what is bad for that purpose is finally "evil."

If the final purpose of our existence is that which has been and is being worked out under the discipline of evolutionary law, then, although we are quite unconscious of the end result, we ought, as Dr. Waddington has urged, to help on "that which tends to promote the ultimate course of evolution." If we do so, then we have to abandon the hope of ever attaining a universal system of ethics; for, as we have just seen, the ways of national evolution, both in the past and in the present, are cruel, brutal, ruthless, and without mercy. Dr. Waddington has not grasped the implications of Nature's method of evolution, for in his summing up (Nature, 1941, 150, p. 535) he writes "that the ethical principles formulated by Christ . . . are those which have tended towards the further evolution of mankind, and that they will continue to do so." Here a question of the highest interest is raised: the relationship which exists between evolution and Christianity; so important, it seems to me, that I shall devote to it a separate chapter. Meantime let me say that the conclusion I have come to is this: the law of Christ is incompatible with the law of evolution as far as the law of evolution has worked hitherto. Nay, the two laws are at war with each other; the law of Christ can never prevail until the law of evolution is destroyed. Clearly the form of evolution which Dr. Waddington has in mind is not that which has hitherto prevailed; what he has in mind is a man made system of evolution. In brief, instead of seeking ethical guidance from evolution, he now proposes to impose a system of ethics on evolution and so bring humanity ultimately to a safe and final anchorage in a Christian haven.



farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 May, 2009 06:28 am
@gungasnake,
Here we go again. oyyy . Artur Keith has certainly had a chheckered career. (He is still considered to be an accompless of Charles Dawson and was suspected to actually be the designer and constructor of the PILTDOWN MAN hoax.

Remember, the statements about Hitler and the Thrid Reich are BY KEiTH , who, himself was a well known Anti Semitic scholar at the mid to end of his career.

Most of gungas references (because they are so sole worn) are repeats of previous posts in his own checkered career. Meanwhile, the entire world is moving on and the forensic analysis of Keiths contribution to fraud and deception is gathering more evidence
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  0  
Reply Tue 26 May, 2009 06:50 am
That's hilarious. It is no surprise, though, that Gunga dim quotes Keith.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 May, 2009 06:53 am
Here's a quote of Keith that i'll bet you won't see Gunga Dim using:

"The German Fuhrer, as I have consistently maintained, is an evolutionist; he has consciously sought to make the practice of Germany conform to the theory of evolution. He has failed, not because the theory of evolution is false, but because he has made three fatal blunders in its application."

Arthur Keith, Evolution and Ethics, Putnam, New York, 1947.
0 Replies
 
gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 May, 2009 08:00 am
Then again, the other thing you have to look at is the history of Europe leading up to WW-I. There had never been anything remotely similar to the two world wars in European history and between the end of the Napoleonic wars and 1913 Europe had gone for about a hundred years without a major war.

They had everything and they didn't even have to think to keep it; all they had to do was go on doing what they'd been doing for the last century: parades, board meetings, masked balls, technological advance.... The sun never set on the British empire and there was enough there for everybody else in Europe to be or get fat and happy in the bargain.

And then they all listened to Chuck Darwin. They started to believe that "survival of the fittest" was the only moral law in nature and that their neighbors were meat byproducts of random events, and the rest is history. At this juncture, they're going to be luck if all of Europe isn't under sharia law in fifteen years.

gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 May, 2009 08:25 am
Werner Gitt on the manner in which information drives all living systems:

http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/itbwi/information-in-living-organisms

Several quotes from major scientists who reject evolution(ism):

Quote:

6.5 Scientists Against Evolution

Fortunately, the number of scientists who repudiate evolutionary views and dilemmas is increasing. This number includes internationally renowned experts, of whom some quotations follow. In New Scientist, the British astrophysicist Sir Fred Hoyle, one of today’s best known cosmologists, expresses his concern about the customary representations under the title “The Big Bang in Astronomy” [H4, p. 523"524]:

Quote:
But the interesting quark transformations are almost immediately over and done with, to be followed by a little rather simple nuclear physics, to be followed by what? By a dull-as-ditchwater expansion which degrades itself adiabatically until it is incapable of doing anything at all. The notion that galaxies form, to be followed by an active astronomical history, is an illusion. Nothing forms, the thing is as dead as a door-nail. . . . The punch line is that, even though outward speeds are maintained in a free explosion, internal motions are not. Internal motions die away adiabatically, and the expanding system becomes inert, which is exactly why the big-bang cosmologies lead to a universe that is dead-and-done-with almost from its beginning.


These views correspond with the findings of Hermann Schneider, a nuclear physicist of Heidelberg, who has critically evaluated the big bang theory from a physical viewpoint. He concludes [S5]: “In the evolution model the natural laws have to describe the origin of all things in the macro and the micro cosmos, as well as their operation. But this overtaxes the laws of nature.”

Fred Hoyle makes the following remarks about the much-quoted primeval soup in which life supposedly developed according to evolutionary expectations [H4, p 526]:

Quote:
I don’t know how long it is going to be before astronomers generally recognize that the combinatorial arrangement of not even one among the many thousands of biopolymers on which life depends could have been arrived at by natural processes here on the earth. Astronomers will have a little difficulty at understanding this because they will be assured by biologists that it is not so, the biologists having been assured in their turn by others that it is not so. The “others” are a group of persons who believe, quite openly, in mathematical miracles. They advocate the belief that tucked away in nature, outside of normal physics, there is a law which performs miracles.


In his book Synthetische Artbildung (The Synthetic Formation of Kinds), Professor Dr. Heribert Nilsson, a botanist at Lund University in Sweden, describes evolutionary doctrine as an obstacle which prevents the development of an exact biology:

Quote:
The final result of all my researches and discussions is that the theory of evolution should be discarded in its entirety, because it always leads to extreme contradictions and confusing consequences when tested against the empirical results of research on the formation of different kinds of living forms and related fields. This assertion would agitate many people. Moreover: my next conclusion is that, far from being a benign natural-philosophical school of thought, the theory of evolution is a severe obstacle for biological research. As many examples show, it actually prevents the drawing of logical conclusions from even one set of experimental material. Because everything must be bent to fit this speculative theory, an exact biology cannot develop.


Professor Dr. Bruno Vollmert of Karlsruhe, an expert in the field of macro-molecular chemistry, has shown that all experiments purporting to support evolution miss the crux of the matter [V1]:

Quote:
All hitherto published experiments about the poly-condensation of nucleotides or amino acids are irrelevant to the problem of evolution at the molecular level, because they were based on simple monomers, and not on “primeval soups” derived from Miller experiments. But poly-condensation experiments with primeval soups or the dissolved mix of substances of them are just as superfluous as attempts to construct perpetual motion machines.


A French Nobel laureate, A. Lwoff [L2], pointed out that every organism can only function in terms of the complex net of available information:

Quote:
An organism is a system of interdependent structures and functions. It consists of cells, and the cells are made of molecules which have to cooperate smoothly. Every molecule must know what the others are doing. It must be able to receive messages and act on them.


When considering the source of this information, we can now formulate the following theorem which is based on research of many thousands of man-years:

Quote:
Theorem 28: There is no known law of nature, no known process, and no known sequence of events which can cause information to originate by itself in matter.


This was also the conclusion of the seventh “International Conference on the Origins of Life” held together with the fourth congress of the “International Society for the Study of the Origin of Life (ISSOL)” in Mainz, Germany. At such occasions, scientists from all over the world exchange their latest results. In his review of the congress, Klaus Dose [D3] writes: “A further puzzle remains, namely the question of the origin of biological information, i.e., the information residing in our genes today.” Not even the physical building blocks required for the storage of the information can construct themselves: “The spontaneous formation of simple nucleotides or even of polynucleotides which were able to be replicated on the pre-biotic earth should now be regarded as improbable in the light of the very many unsuccessful experiments in this regard.”

As early as 1864, when Louis Pasteur addressed the Sorbonne University in Paris, he predicted that the theory of the spontaneous generation of living cells would never recover from the fatal blow delivered by his experiments. In this regard, Klaus Dose makes an equally important statement: “The Mainz report may have an equally important historical impact, because for the first time it has now been determined unequivocally by a large number of scientists that all evolutionary theses that living systems developed from poly-nucleotides which originated spontaneously, are devoid of any empirical base.”

Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 May, 2009 10:15 am
@gungasnake,
Quote:
Then again, the other thing you have to look at is the history of Europe leading up to WW-I. There had never been anything remotely similar to the two world wars in European history and between the end of the Napoleonic wars and 1913 Europe had gone for about a hundred years without a major war.


Gunga Dim has me on ignore, so he won't read this, but that does not mean that other people won't. In history, as in science, Gunga doesn't know what the hell he's talking about. The settlement of the Napoleonic era was the Congress of Vienna in 1815. The Carlists (named for the man who would eventually become Carlos V) in Spain fought the Isabellistas (named for Isabella II) off and on from 1833 to 1876.

Napoleon III (then acting as the President of the French Republic) invaded Italy in 1849 to restore Pope Pius IX to his throne as ruler of the Papal States, defeating Mazzini and Garibaldi. Ten years later, in 1859, after secret negotiations with Cavour, Napoleon III again invaded Italy, to expel the Austrians, and to support Cavour's dream of a united Italy. At Magenta, a Franco-Sardinian army of about 60,000 inflicted more than 10,000 casualties on an Austrian army of more than 120,000, at a cost of about 4,000 casualties. (The Kingdom of Sardinia comprised the island of Sardinia and Piedmont, which was roughly the northwestern fifth of what is today Italy.) Just three weeks later, at Solferino, Napoleon III and Victor Emmanuel II of Sardinia, with an army of more than 100,000 troops defeated the Austrian Emperor Franz Josef I with an army of about 100,000 troops, and with a butcher's bill of nearly 40,000 on the two sides. This was the largest battle in European history since the Battle of the Nations at Leipsig in 1813, when the allied forces of Russia, Prussia and Austria defeated Napoleon I. Napoleon III was appalled by the losses at Solferino, and withdrew from his alliance with Victor Emmanuel without further aiding in the unification of Italy. He kept troops in Rome to protect the Pope's authority there, but otherwise Italy was unified in 1860--the French troops left Rome in 1870.

Additionally, Napoleon III sent French troops, and provided the transportation and logistical support for Belgian troops in the invasion of Mexico in 1862, which attempted to put an Austrian Archduke on a Mexican imperial throne. The Hapsburg Archduke, Maximilian, was, however, abandoned when the American Civil War ended, and Grant sent troops to the Rio Grande. Maximilian was eventually captured by the forces of Juarez, and was executed by firing squad.

In Germany, the Prussian kingdom, under the guidance of Bismarck, invaded Denmark in 1863 with Austrian support, and when, in 1866, he had a falling out with Austria, he used the excuse that the Austrians had failed to live up to their agreement about Denmark, and went to war with Austria, the defeat of which allowed him to consolidate control of the rest of Germany apart from Bavaria, and to create the German Empire.

After the Congress of Vienna, what we call Belgium had been handed over to the control of the Dutch, and the Flemings and Waloons were less than thrilled with the arrangement. There was a revolution in 1830 (which coincided with a revolution in France which put Louis Philippe--the "Citizen-King"--on the throne upon which the Bourbons would never again sit), and France, England and Germany (at least the then Kingdom of Prussia) all guaranteed Belgian neutrality, which resulted in England joining the Allies against Germany in 1914 when the Germans violated Belgian neutrality.

The Poles had elected Nicholas I of Russia to be their King, and when he attempted to prevent reform in Poland, they deposed him. So, Nicholas invaded the rump of Poland (most of which had disappeared during the earlier partitions) in 1831, and made it a province of the Russian Empire.

The Greek war of independence lead to the Russo-Turkish War of 1828-29, which was settled by the Treaty of Adrianople. (There had been a Russo-Turkish was from 1806-12, but Gunga Dim did specify the end of the Napoleonic Wars, which is 1815.) In 1853, Russia and Turkey again went to war, in what became known in the west as the Crimean War, which was settled by the Congress of Paris in 1856. Russian and Turkey again went to war in 1876-78, leading to Bismarck's Congress of Berlin in 1878, which supposedly settled the "European situation." This latter war can be seen as another Balkan War, in that it was precipitated by an uprising in Bosnia-Herzegovina, which was, of course, the scene of the assassination of the Archduke Franz-Ferdinand in Sarajevo in 1914.

The Italo-Turkish war of 1911-12 lead to the fall of the first Young Turk government, and encouraged the Balkan states to attempt to grab territory form "the sick old man of Europe" (i.e., Turkey), resulting in the First Balkan War in 1912. Since Gunga Dim specified 1913, that covers the Second Balkan War.

Incredible as it may seem, Gunga Dim seems to know even less about history than he does about science, which is saying a hell of a lot.

To say that there had never been anything remotely similar to the two world wars displays an incredibly profound ignorance of history, to go along with the idiotic claim that Europe knew a hundred years of peace between 1815 and 1913.
gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 May, 2009 11:03 am
@Setanta,
I DID use the word MAJOR, asswipe; you might want to look it up in a dictionary.

A MAJOR European war would be something like the 30-years war or Napoleon's invasion of Russia. Nothing like that happened between Waterloo and 1913.
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 May, 2009 11:20 am
@gungasnake,
I guess you don't always have me on ignore, huh?

Look up the battle of Solferino, it was the largest battle in Europe between the Battle of the Nations at Leipsic in 1813, and the outbreak of the First World War. The forces at the battle of Waterloo were smaller than the forces involved in the battle of Solferino. I'm fairly certain that the sufferers of 43 years of civil war in Spain considered that a major event. Turkey and Russia went to war three times in the period you specified, and during the Russo-Turkish War of 1853, known in the west as the Crimean War, total casualties mounted to nearly 900,000 on the two sides. For some perspective (which in matters of history you clearly lack), that is very nearly equal to the entire amount of the forces arrayed on the two sides of the Thirty Years War. Total casualties for the Thirty Years War don't even come close to a significant fraction of the nearly 900,000 casualties of the Russo-Turkish War of 1853. For more perspective, that figure exceeds the number of the total estimated casualties for Napoleon's invasion of Russian by nearly a quarter of a million.

You really don't know what the hell your talking about.

gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 May, 2009 12:08 pm
@Setanta,
The 30 years war pretty much turned Europe into a pigpen.

Granted it's been a little while but my memory isn't really that bad; the West Point Military History series notes the Franco Prussian and Crimean wars but does not rate them in the same category as the 30-years or Napoleonic wars and for sure they do not compare with the world wars and I don't really remember any mention of the other conflicts you mention.

The point I make is a valid one: in the year 1913, Europe had been at peace for a long time and there was no rational reason for what happened.

 

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