3
   

Darwinists: Persisting despite the evidence

 
 
gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Sun 24 May, 2009 06:00 pm
@OmSigDAVID,
Recently, Chris Mathews has been going after pubbies using rhetoric similar to what one sees on these forum threads, i.e.

Quote:
.... is it true many if not most of you pubbies don't believe in evolution? Why are you against science (by being against evolution)??... is it true you still wet your bed (because you don't believe inevolution).... etc. etc. etc.....


One response which has been suggested:

Quote:

Mr. Mathews, have you made any sort of an in depth study of the theory of evolution, and the problems associated with it?

Are you aware of the studies which were carried out over a multi-decades period in the last century involving fruit flies and how miserably evolution failed that test? Are you aware that several top scientists publicly renounced evolution on account of those tests?

Are you aware of the immense problem which the fossil record presented for classical Darwinian gradualism and of the many statements which scientists have made describing evolution as incompatible with the fossil record?

Are you aware that Steve Gould and Nyles Eldredge tried to devise a new version of evolution, called 'punctuated equilibria' to patch up that problem, but that punctuated equilibria has problems just as big and is in fact a pure pseudoscience since it involves a claim of validation by lack of evidence instead of by evidence?

Are you aware of the Haldane dilemma and the gigantic time periods, greater than the assumed age of the universe in fact, which evolution would take to create our present biosphere even if that were possible, which in actual fact it is not?

Are you aware that scientists and researchers are now finding blood, blood vessels, and other kinds of soft tissue inside dinosaur bones and of what that does to the time scales which evolution requires?

Mr. Mathews, you asked me if I believe in evolution; Do I look like an idiot to you? In actual fact only idiots believe in or defend evolution in today's world,people with brains and talent gave up on it decades ago.

Mr. Mathews, is there some reason why you didn't check any of this out before asking your arrogant question which seeks to frame Republicans as ignorant bible thumpers?
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Sun 24 May, 2009 06:38 pm
@gungasnake,
That entire "Mr Mathews" crap is a series of untruths, distortions and outright lies. Gould and Eldredge did NOT try to recreate a "new" theory. They viewed some evidence of stasis in the fossil record. BTW, they didnt see that "Stasis" occured throughout a species occurence, they, instead saw that a species will show lineal transitional forms for sections of the fossils record and then, in several time SLOTS, they will see that stasis had occured for a longer period of time , eemingly followed by a "saltation type jump". Recent work by folks at Columbia has shown that many of these "stasis" strata were actually errors in sampling by Gould and Eldredge.

The studies of fruitflies werent even attempts at evolution but of environmental mutation effects. Every kid in high school did these experiments with fruit flies. However, bacteria HAVE been mutationally evolved based upon their "acquired affinities " for acidic mediua, (Malic acid, Citrate salts etc). There is a classical study going on that, for over 25 years has compiled tens of thousands of generations of E coli. (The evolution of these E coli has resulted in new strains (Actually species ) of bacteria.
SPOILER ALERT::: GUNGA WILL SOON JUMP IN AND SAY THAT THEY WERENT SUCCESSFUL AT CHANGING A BACTERIA INTO A MONKEY. "Therefore evolution is bullshit". As ros stated so eloquently way back, micro evolution is just repeated for several thousand generations until it becomes "macro " evolution.




Quote:
Are you aware of the immense problem which the fossil record presented for classical Darwinian gradualism and of the many statements which scientists have made describing evolution as incompatible with the fossil record?

Obviously, whoever wrote that has NO working knowledge of the fossil record . The writer ismerely parroting what the official "scientists" at ICR are babbling. They babble without any understanding either. Any grad student in cladistics would clean these ICR clocks.

Quote:
Are you aware that scientists and researchers are now finding blood, blood vessels, and other kinds of soft tissue inside dinosaur bones and of what that does to the time scales which evolution requires?

WHO SAYS? The "soft tissue" was all found within a matrix of solid cementitious rock. (Sort of like Jimmy Hoffa in a cement tomb). Did the rock undergo diagenesis and change the initial collagen into a waxy material? (that seems to be the GC?MS findings. Thats not so surprising cause we have Permian amber and Paleozoic "waxes in coal seams). How about Ordovician Pwtroleum? It runs, its is totally organic , and the Eocene Green River oil shale contains lotsa collagen

Quote:
Are you aware of the Haldane dilemma and the gigantic time periods, greater than the assumed age of the universe in fact, which evolution would take to create our present biosphere even if that were possible, which in actual fact it is not?
Apparently the only "dilemma" is gungas belief that theres a dilemma. Haldane himself shut down the speculation on the declining genic base . He didnt realize the generations involved and the fact that his math was incorrect.(That was in the late 1940's,and early 50's JEEZUS, science has made a bazillion fossil intermediates to close down the "dilemma freakoids")
0 Replies
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Sun 24 May, 2009 10:34 pm
@gungasnake,
gungasnake wrote:
Quote:
Recently, Chris Mathews has been going after pubbies

What r pubbies ?
0 Replies
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Sun 24 May, 2009 10:52 pm
@gungasnake,
David wrote:
Quote:

Some of the early opponents of the heliocentric concept
burned alive some of its early proponents, alleging a moral duty
to believe in the earlier geocentric concept.

gungasnake wrote:
Quote:
The problem was that epicycles were viewed as a proof of the existence of God
prior to Kepler and Copernicus and the heliocentric system
appeared to be in conflict with that proof.

That 's not exactly accurate, Gunga.
Someone decided that circles are perfect
and therefore celestial bodies must move in circles, not ellipses.
Astronomical observations were in conflict with this theory.
In desperate attempts to save their theory of perfect circles from the dreaded ellipses,
epicircles within other epicircles were theorized and alleged to be the fact.





gungasnake wrote:
Quote:

The heliocentric theory of course offered a simple explanation for epicycles.

The explanation was that thay were illusionary.



`
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Sun 24 May, 2009 11:40 pm
@OmSigDAVID,
for example, we all know that the moon is made of cheese. However its density is 3.43 gm/cm3. Therefore we know that the moon must be made of a very dense cheese. Maybe Manchego or really dessicated parmesan
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Mon 25 May, 2009 12:09 am
@farmerman,
farmerman wrote:
Quote:
for example, we all know that the moon is made of cheese.
However its density is 3.43 gm/cm3. Therefore we know that
the moon must be made of a very dense cheese.
Maybe Manchego or really dessicated parmesan

Maybe; I have no information about that,
but I heard that it is GREEN.



`
0 Replies
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Mon 25 May, 2009 12:25 am

Something I learned from my friend next door, Angela,
who believed the Earth was only a few 1000 years old, etc.:
As we discussed the issue,
I noticed that she became unexpectedly agitated and emotionally upset.
This was uncharacteristic of her usual light hearted demeanor.
From that experience, I learned that if, in debate, u cause someone
to feel that his or her core values r threatened
he or she will react with negative emotion; fear, anger n hatred.

That may be less so,
if he is expecting a forensic tussle.



`
0 Replies
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Mon 25 May, 2009 02:41 am

These q's r addressed to each of Gunga n Spendius:

1. How old is the Earth ?

2. How did Man begin to inhabit the Earth ?

3. Where did Man come from ?

4. How old is Man ?

If these r too many questions for u,
then just answer however many of them either of u wish to answer.


`
gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Mon 25 May, 2009 08:51 am
@OmSigDAVID,
Quote:
1. How old is the Earth ?

2. How did Man begin to inhabit the Earth ?

3. Where did Man come from ?

4. How old is Man ?


1. First off, all of the dating schemes which blowhards like F-man believe in are bullshit. Recently, lava samples from Mount St. Helens, i.e. which were known to be no more than 30 years old, were sent to laboratories which do the sort of stuff F-man believes in for dating; they were dated as between about 300,000 and a few million years of age.

Second, we actually do have one planet in our system, Venus, which appears to actually be ballpark for the sort of 6K - 10K year age which scholars used to derive from Bible chronologies. Venus LOOKS like a new planet: 900F surface temperature, 90-bar CO2 atmosphere in which a 5 mph wind would bowl you over the same way waves do at the beach, statistically random cratering, total lack of regolith, massive thermal imbalance etc. etc.

Since Earth and Mars do not look like that, you have to assume they are significantly older, but how much older is basically just guessing. My own version of such a guess would be between 200,000 and about 200M of our years, based on Robert Bass' thermal equations.

2 and 3. You have three choices:

  • Man was created here, recently, and from scratch.
  • Man was genetically re-engineered from one of the hominids, most likely the neanderthal.
  • Man was brought here from elsewhere in the cosmos, most likely Mars if that were the case.


The idea of man evolving is not tenable. Aside from the fact that evolution has been proven to be a bunch of bullshit generally, there is the further problem that there is nothing on our planet from which modern man could have evolved. The neanderthal has been ruled out as a possible ancestor since the genetic gap is simply too wide, and all other hominids were further removed from us THAN the neanderthal. Neanderthal DNA is generally described as about halfway between ours and that of a chimpanzee. Hominids were glorified apes. Even the neanderthal's body was barrel-shaped like those of apes rather than having the general lines of modern humans.

4. As far as times goes, Gunnar Heinsohn puts the neanderthal dieout at a couple of thousand years prior to the flood, and I would not date modern man any further back than that. In that sense, the Bible is pretty close to being accurate.

What Heinsohn means is that the stratigraphy of the main European cave systems in which neanderthal remains are found has been totally misinterpreted, and that there is no actual physical evidence which can be properly interpreted as suggesting an earlier dieout time for neanderthals than a few thousand years.
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Mon 25 May, 2009 09:08 am
@gungasnake,
Quote:
1. First off, all of the dating schemes which blowhards like F-man believe in are bullshit. Recently, lava samples from Mount St. Helens, i.e. which were known to be no more than 30 years old, were sent to laboratories which do the sort of stuff F-man believes in for dating; they were dated as between about 300,000 and a few million years of age.
Ive got graduate and post graduate training in radioisotopic age dating. Ive got about 30+ years of experience in applications. And GUNGA is claiming its all BULLSHIT? Ive invited him to discuss his claims and all he comes up with is this tired old chestnut about K/Ar dating of Mt Helen tephras. Ive given him (several times) resources about WHY a K/Ar date is inaccurate unless the Ar/Ar ratios and cleanup of the samples are accomplished within a field custody process. His "heroes" two clowns who have purposely taken tephra sample from a KNOWN AGE volcanic eruption , and within an area that the tephra has been REMIXED with even older rock, would, consiering the rank incompetence displayed by these guys, give a date wildly in error.

THE real facts are that radiosotopic dating has been proven and reproven the world over , and all the several techniques of radioisotopic dating coalesce around the same age for the same rocks.

All decay constants in use for geochronology are also the same that are in use for the calculation for control surface in nuclear power, and fission reactions that cover everything from nuclear weapons to hospital raioisotope dosages.(GUNGA wants us all to convert to nuclear power, I wonder how nook scientists in his world use to design the reactors?)

Gunga Puh leeeze, you go on like this every few months and the only thing that surprises me is that , obviously, you dont seem to be learning anything because you only blather the same crap as implied evidence.

I sincerely doubt your competance in reading comprehension.
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Mon 25 May, 2009 11:23 am
@farmerman,
Quote:
Ive got graduate and post graduate training in radioisotopic age dating.


Don't you simply place the prepared sample in a chamber and read a figure off a dial and believe it?

30+ years of that and I suppose anything could happen.
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Mon 25 May, 2009 12:57 pm
@farmerman,

Farmerman wrote:
Quote:

His "heroes" two clowns who have purposely taken tephra sample
from a KNOWN AGE volcanic eruption, and within an area that the tephra
has been REMIXED with even older rock, would, consiering the
rank incompetence displayed by these guys, give a date wildly in error.

Do u allege intentional sabatage ?

Who were those 2 fellows ?
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Mon 25 May, 2009 01:15 pm
@OmSigDAVID,
The leader , Steven Austin,is a trained geologist(geochemist involved in pleichroism of micas from volcanic deposits) who became a CREATIONIST after about 10 years after his degree was conferred. His colleague, a guy named Swenson was an MD I believe so he was unfamiliarwith anything doing with geology.

Austin knew damn well about the conditions of sampling and the problems with degassing in Ar/Ar and AR/Ca nuke equilibria that he would face if they sampled the dacite tephra from the Mt ST Helens dome. HE WROTE A FUCKIN SCHOLARLY PAPER ON THE VERY SUBJECT OF LIMITATIONS TO SAMPLING YOUNG EJECTS" IN THE LATE 80"s

YEs, I really believe that he was involved in intentional and fraudulent rad isotope dating techniques on very young K/Ar samples.HE knew better but did it anyway. WHY?

The problem with K/Ar is young ash or (in this case a large crystal in a cemented dacite tephra) doesnt contain Ar from the new volcanic deposit. IT DOES, however, contain Ar from any early mixed in rock from earlier eruptions. (THis is called metamict where the rock is like the batter in blueberry pancakes) The blueberries have a different calendar age than the batter. Also, the inclusion of rslly old deep strata that was blown through the side wall of Mt St Helens will have some K/Ar that is datable and, just like the blueberries, has nothing to do with the present eruption. Wherever we can see the horizon that was eruptive , we dont ever do radioisotopic dating because we already know its gonna be wrong just because of the "blueberry pancake batter" effect.
The fact that Austin wrote a scholarly paper about 10 years before he did the Mt ST Helens sampling, should at least, call into question his motives for doing it. I believe (sincerely) that he was already ensconsed at the Institute for Creation SCience, and was just looking for some demonstration so that he could become a "made man" in Duae Gish's eyes.
The ICR has done a whole shitpot of tricks and deceptions just to disprove evolution. At no time have they ever come up with any evidence of theories to be tested regarding their worldview (Biblical Creationism and mostly Young Earthers to boot)
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Mon 25 May, 2009 01:23 pm
@farmerman,
At this point I would suggest that gungasnake should find a nice warm hole to hide in for a time<LOL>.
0 Replies
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Mon 25 May, 2009 01:40 pm

ERRATUM:

" intentional sabatage "

shoud have been: intentional sabotage





David
0 Replies
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Mon 25 May, 2009 02:04 pm
@gungasnake,

Gunga, in fairness to the Professor
(his scatological references aside, for the moment)
do u agree that he has rendered a good and reasonable explanation
for the fiasco at Mt. St. Helens ?





David
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Mon 25 May, 2009 02:07 pm
@spendius,

Spendius,
do u wish to contribute to our knowledge
concerning any of my questions ?





David
gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Mon 25 May, 2009 02:14 pm
@OmSigDAVID,
["do u agree..."] No. There are so many problems with these dating methods that there's no real way to pick a place to start. The Mount St. Helen's problem is just one of a myriad.
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Mon 25 May, 2009 02:48 pm
@OmSigDAVID,
I'm sorry Dave. I must have missed your questions. If you will direct me to them I will try to provide answers.
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Mon 25 May, 2009 04:33 pm
@gungasnake,
Quote:
["do u agree..."] No. There are so many problems with these dating methods that there's no real way to pick a place to start. The Mount St. Helen's problem is just one of a myriad.


And you come to this special knowledge HOW?. From what training or experience do you persist in establishing any credibility in geochronology? You seem pretty sure of yourself. WHY dont you publish something in a poster session at an AGU or GSA conference. Im sure youd have many people willing to take time out and discuss your belief system v evidence and radiochemistry.

WHether you agree or not is immaterial to science since radiochemitry and nuclear physics have been long established as interdisciplanary sciences. Dont let the nrest of us know that we are operating under a false reality, It will break our collective hearts that all the designs and measurements are right for the wrong reasons.

Ive told GUNGASNAKE several times that Austin is a sham and a fraud who has tried to perp many errors onto (mostly) the general population. He does it by doing these outrageous "experiments" knowing full well that his entire methods are not even able to be QA'd. Several labs, when asked to do the ame radiodating, had contacted AUtin to advise him of the major inconsistency in his methodology. FRAUD is the word. GUNGASNAKE has been unable to refute that because by, bringing it up more and more will only expose Austin to the tons of critique that hes earned from univeristy students and teachers.

DAVE-stop calling me "professor" Im only an adjunct faculty and its been years since I was in acadeam in a "tenure track" world. I left teaching in the 80's to take over a business involved in developing and selling ore prospects in nTitanium and Rare earth elements. Thats where my love is. I teach as a way of working with a new crop of "APPLIED SCIENTISTS" not academics. Nothing happens in development until the lode is defined and brought in and financed.
 

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