GREED

truth
I agree that we should not expect perfection from people. For that reason it is realistic to accept "small" amounts (cf. C.I.) of petty greed and selfishness from ourselves and our neighbors. I was referring to the insatiable and institutionalized greed of corporations (economic greed) and governments (political greed).

There's a lot of greed that you don't notice, CI. Like when you eat, or sleep, or do anything that you like to do. That's all greed. When you bargain for a better price, when you ask for a raise. Iwouldn't consider wanting more than we need to be happy as greed. That's gluttony, or some form of mental illness. A lot of Americans suffer from it, it seems.

Eating and sleeping is not greed. It's a biological necessity.

Rufio, asking for a raise may not necessary be greed but standing up for your rights and being paid for what you are really worth.

truth
Rubio, you seem to be trivializing what is really a monstrous force in the world.

To be greedy is to demand what is your by right or by desert, and to what you want when you can. Taking what you don't want and hurting others are different things. Greed, as I have been saying, is a good thing. It's the reason we're alive. It's just gotten a bad name. Helping others can be greedy too, since you might benefit emotionally from it. We are by nature social creatures, and most things that benefit individuals also benefits society as a whole.

I am not trivializing it, JL, I think it is a mighty force in the world that allows to eat and breathe and live of our own free will.

truth
But Rufio, what you mean by greed is an everyday simple harmless fact of human motivation. Of course, everyone/every living thing pursues the gratification of its needs, but that is decidedly not what I am talking about. I'm talking about a cold-blooded desire to have unlimited wealth and/or power regardless of the consequences for others. It is a perversion of motivation that is insatiable, that recognizes no limits as defined by the rights of others. It is the unbridled immaturity one sees in pre-socialized infants. When this immaturity occurs in adult power holders in industry and government the world suffers considerable danger.

JLN, exactly--that's when respect for human life diminishes in order to accumulate wealth and/or power.

truth
Hi, Diane. I knew YOU would understand and agree.

On a "greed" scale rufio and JLNobody would appear to be at the opposite ends, although perhaps not.

If all acts are selfish acts and selffish actions definie greed then all acts are motivatied by greed. I think that's what rufio's getting at.

JLNobody

truth
I agree with the thrust of your argument, Twyvel. No self, no greed, but also: no self, no self-serving altruism. I know that my occasional efforts at doing well by others in need, are REALLY actions in the service of my self concept. That's why I'm embarrassed by gratitude. At the same time there is a meaningful difference between actions AGAINST others in the service of the (delusional) self and actions FOR others in the service of the (delusional) self. True, they are both bad spiritually speaking. They both reflect and confirm the illusion of a separate self. Nevertheless, the world would be a better place to live in if self-centeredness were expressed more often in the altruistic version than in the greedy one.
Compassion, on the other hand--which is different from pity--reflects perception sans feeling of self and separation from those with whom we have empathy. THAT is spiritually whole and fundamentally selfless. IMHO.

"But Rufio, what you mean by greed is an everyday simple harmless fact of human motivation."

And what you mean by greed is the purposeful harming of others. Which definition sounds more like "greed" to you?

"I'm talking about a cold-blooded desire to have unlimited wealth and/or power regardless of the consequences for others."

I don't think that exists. I'm pretty sure that anyone who wants to accumulate vast amounts of wealth has some idea of what they intend to do with it.

"It is the unbridled immaturity one sees in pre-socialized infants."

Again, you're talking about lack of respect for others, not greed.

When a business tycoon exploits his workers in a third-world country so he can mass-produce tennis shoes and sell them for a 500% profit, is it his desire to gain money, possibly to buy himself something nice that is wrong, or his injury of others in his pursuit of the money? I want to earn money, too, possibly as much as the tycoon. Does that put me on the same moral level as him, even if I earn that money honorably?

All the dictionaries I check give me something like this for greed:

n 1: excessive desire to acquire or possess more (esp material wealth) than one needs or deserves 2: reprehensible acquisitiveness; insatiable desire for wealth (personified as one of the deadly sins) [syn: avarice, covetousness, rapacity, avaritia]


The word excessive keeps popping up. Greed has a meaning and part of the meaning is excess. Rufio and others (who perhaps take too much stock in Gecko's (must it be pointed out 'satirical) speech in Wall Street, seem to forget this basic aspect of the meaning, and equate greed with self interest or mere ambition. Certaionly nothing wrong with either of these items. It's the excess we note in the greedy person.

I feel that this devaluation of the actual meaning of the word is almost Orwellian. In any event I will continue to place a negative connotation on the word, as it was intended.

JLNobody writes:

Nevertheless, the world would be a better place to live in if self-centeredness were expressed more often in the altruistic version than in the greedy one.

Is that the direction of enlightenment? I think so. The more I treat (perceived) others as my perceived self the more they become me, although less diversity leads to less creativity, less competition less development?

You wrote:
Compassion, on the other hand--which is different from pity--reflects perception sans feeling of self and separation from those with whom we have empathy. THAT is spiritually whole and fundamentally selfless. IMHO.

A little idealized JL imho,

"Compassion"..Deep awareness of the suffering of another coupled with the wish to relieve it ………is a great feeling (and awareness) that a "self" has, so I wouldn't agree that "compassion reflects "sans feeling of self and separation from those with whom we have empathy"., though it certainly brings people together in "relationship", in common feelings, desires and needs and the egalitarian wish to fulfill them.

By definition one has to have "feelings" of self in order to have compassion, i.e. I feel as you do, my feelings and thoguhts agree with yours etc.

Although you may be thinking deeper or beyond definitions.

So now we have three possible meanings for greed. Which one matches what you are describing as greed? (This applied to everyone):
1. The desire to accumulate wealth, pleasures, services, possessions, whatever.
2. The desire to accumulate these things in excess (i.e. beyond your personal, mental, and physical needs).
3. The intentional injury of others for the purpose of gaining these things.

2. The desire to accumulate these things in excess (i.e. beyond your personal, mental, and physical needs).
3. The intentional injury of others for the purpose of gaining these things.

...fit the dictionary deffinitions... No?

Or are we Humpty Dumpty to force the word to mean what we wish?

:wink:

truth
Rufio. Consider: the willingness to injure others in the pursuit of wealth.
Twyvel, yeah, I'm thinking deeper and beyond definitions; that's the ticket

I wonder if that home-maker-designer diva, Martha Stewart, fits that definition?

truth
Don't know about Martha, but I wouldn't be surprised. Something about her level of ambition. But that tells more about me than about her.

Rufio, the definition given by beedlesquoink should be used as a basis for how we identify greed.

Excess, or the harm of others are what seem to keep coming up, but I wonder how someone like Warren Buffet would fit into this definition? He still lives in the same old house, in the same neighborhood and doesn't engage in a style of living that would be considered excessive. He has earned enormous amounts of money, but he hadn't harmed anyone in the process and has benefitted others with his skill at investing.

My question to those still participating in this thread is: Would Warren Buffet be considered greedy or is he simply earning more money than he needs because he is more skilled than most people? When earning money is considered a game of skill, without hurting anybody, is it still defined as greed?