GREED

I have no problem with you disagreeing with my post but I think you missed my point.
I believe many, if not most westerners are generous. voluntarism is high amoungst North Americans, thousands of well deserving charities have their origins here and the world would be a poorer place without them. It's the culture of 'bigger is better' and 'more is never enough' attitude I was challenging.
A case in point - SUV's (overdone I grant you but none-the-less apropos) when your average city dweller who rarely sees the highways or off road country is driving a gas guzzler and not a more economical vehicle. It's greed, plain and simple, I have the money, the status and therefore I'll show it off.
Our western culture wastes so much while huge segments of society do with out and will always do so. Sure many recycle, but why is it necessary? When all it would take is an outcry to stop all the unecessary packaging. Do we need hammers wrapped in plastic? Many companies are environmentally concience but how many more are not. Where is the general condemnation of the businesses that aren't?
Poor people that are fat are so because they have a choice. How many living on subsistant diets in the third world have the same choice. It's hard to get fat on a diet of beans, rice and maize. Poor people in our culture have many opporutunties, education, shelter and food. They have the ability to pull themselves out of destitution but in many countries that is not an option.
I do not begrudge people wealth but when Micheal Jordan et al. are given obscene amounts of money to lure people into buying a product and the people who make the product exist on a pittance, it is apparent our values are skewed.
There is much anger in this world, much of it is understandable when you see the vast difference between the rich and poorer nations and the richer exploiting poorer nations for there own benefit.
Ceili

Merely existing in a first world country probably doesn't make you guilty of exploitation--if you're a first world homeless, or destitute; or it does to a very small degree. But the more a first worlder consumes, the more the first worlder exploits.

The action precipitated on the part of the individual accused of exploitation is to engage in an exploitative economic system. An exploitative economic system strives to produce at the utmost lowest possible cost in labor. An example is Levi Strauss & Co. which has forsaken production in North America--the US, Canada and even Mexico--for production in China. They can pay the laborers there less. The bottom line for Levi Strauss & Co. is money. Their bottom line certainly isn't their laborers.

Of the three hundred dollars that you spent on those shoes, one of the largest portions went to the human being that advertised it to you. The largest portion went to the company owners or corporation board members. The lowest portion went to the human being that actually made those shoes. Shoe laborers in the third world, say China, get smaller, much, much smaller portions of the three hundred dollars than do first world laborers such as those in Italy.

Ceili's quote, "There is much anger in this world, much of it is understandable when you see the vast difference between the rich and poorer nations and the richer exploiting poorer nations for there own benefit." I dont think it's only a matter of one country taking advantage of another. People in the same country takes advantage of others, and there are too many examples here in the good ole USA to support this. I think it's a human thing, and not so much a country to country thing.

Greed is a human thing. It becomes international when countries' cultural, economic and political systems predicated on this aspect of human nature aggressively go about the world imposing those systems upon other less aggressive countries and cultures to the advantage of the aggressor countries, to to detriment of the countries imposed upon.

Global terrorism, to a large degree, is a reaction to these aggressions.

Greed is aggressive and ambitious.

Let us also add covetousness. Greed and covetousness often operate jointly as human phenomena.

You are so right, c.i.
I remember a few years ago when india and pakastan were tossing about nuclear weapons with so much bravado. I asked an Indian friend of mine how, when millions live in mind shattering destitution how the governments of these countries could spend so much on a pissing contest. He told me, the average person was so overwhelmed by the daily reminder of poverty they would rather ignore it and get on with proving who had the bigger set.
In canada we have a homeless population too and natives on reserves without running water. I guess the moral is look in your own backyard first, or is it?
Ceili

Ceili, That would be a good start, but I doubt it'll do any good. What is more interesting are those isolated cultures that have learned to share whatever they have with others. Makes you wonder what life is all about.

You should read more closely, before you criticise someone else.
I said they weren't good deeds. I just wanted to do those things to ease my own personal pain of knowing dogs were starving, and children had cold feet. I'm way too sensitive toward children and dogs (as I suspect Montana is), and their plight often stays ith me days after witnessing their need-- I can't get the mental picture out of my mind easily. Trying to help them, and actually being able to, relieves my sadness--so I've incorporated that into my life. Not a good deed, because it is selfish. I did it for me, as much as I did for those to whom I gave. I got a kick out of it. (And they benefit, as well.)

I'm not ashamed to tell the people on this board things that put me in a decidedly negative light. And, I didn't feel like I had to hide this subject, either. It flowed from the conversation... I feel comfortable sharing my opinion on any subject here, really.

--I just read on, and have to thank you for the laugh. I was really pissed at you before I saw this--

My motivation feeding animals was so I could tell people about it later...? That was funny. I think you may be transferring your motivations on to me-- People generally do this when they can't concieve of others' reasoning. Its OK if you don't do things for other people. But, its not OK to condemn my motivations, just because you can't understand them.

And Montana is right. I didn't feel self-conscious at all sharing this with this group of people, especially her--because we know one another--and understand our motivations. You are new, and don't know us from Jack.

Responding to this--

I was watching a movie with my daughter... I think you have bitten off a bit more than you can chew. Why don't we discuss who appointed you the judge of others' motivations? And, while we're discussing that, shall we discuss your motives in spending an inordinate amount of your time being unnecessarily rude to other people?

Montana-- I read back and saw what you said. You can speak for me anytime. Thank you for the benefit of the doubt. :wink:

Sofia
No doubt you can surely speak for yourself, but I couldn't help but throw in my 2 cents since I know where you stand. I thought about it after and was hoping that you didn't mind since I do not like to speak for anyone else. I'm glad you didn't mind and love your last post. I wish I could express myself as well as you do ;-) Keep on truckin girl :-D

I agree with Sofia that it's almost impossible to judge other's motivations for doing anything that may appear to be generosity on the surface. Many of us have different motivations for our giving to others and to charities.

Sofia: I wanted an explanation from you, not to pass judgement. Sorry that my provocation looked like judgement to you. I understand that in a close circles bragging rules tend to shift. Thanx for reminding me that

Excuse my poor English, it's not my native language. I guess it could also be cultural differences that make me appear rude. Whatever, too sleepy today to discuss anything further.

I just read a book (that's why I got no sleep tonight) that says GREED is not wanting more power or money, but being mortally afraid to become powerless and moneyless. The millionaires are supposedly so scared of losing their money, they just have to make more of it.

nemesis--

Glad to see your post. I wasn't bragging, but I guess I can see how someone may construe it as such.

There are five or six members here, who over a couple of years have shared a weakness/strength for helping other people, and earned my respect. When they shared their experiences, I never thought they were bragging. I guess you have to have a background on someone before seeing a post, such as the one you were responding to by me. Otherwise, I see how it could be construed in a manner it wasn't intended.

Craven has a habit of risking life and limb for others in trouble, and is hilariously horrified by compliments ; Montana sticks her neck out for animals, and against hunting for sport; Dys risked his career for disadvantaged children; Roberta has earned my neverending benefit of the doubt with hard honesty about her feelings post 911-- We have a thread somewhere about What You Give Back to your community. I am at the bottom of the heap in community service compared to many of the members. We have quite a civic minded group here. The people I mentioned by name, and some others, have proven something to me, which wasn't their intent, but the result of the body of things they have shared here. I guess you farted on my benefit of the doubt, and I took it more seriously than I should.

Anyhoo, I'm not harboring bad vibes, as I'd planned to do.

truth
I don't believe in the "SIN' of greed because sins are crimes against a fictitious God. I believe in crimes which are violations of man-made proscriptions. But greed, while neither sin nor crime, is the worst of all failings because it is cold-blooded and insatiable.

To see greed in its vilest form, read Disposable People, by Kevin Bales. It is about slavery throughout the world, including slavery in most modern, "civilized" cities. It examines slavery in Thailand, Mauritania, Brazil, Pakistan and India.

Here is a portion of a book review by Danny Yee..........

"Also common to all forms of slavery is a profit-making motive, though the profits from the "new" style of slavery tend to be much larger than from the older forms. Bales covers both microeconomic detail and connections with broader national and global economies. He analyses, for example, the profits to be made from owning a water-carrier slave in
Nouakchott, Mauritania, or running a four-worker charcoal-making operation in Brazil. And he looks at the scale of the profits made by the businessmen with "clean hands" who run slave-using businesses "at arms length" and at their links to national and international companies and markets."

Also read The Satya interview with Kevin Bales, Part 1
http://www.satyamag.com/dec02/bales1.html
...at the bottom of the interview is a link to part 2.

A warning: this book is extremely difficult to read as it exposes greed in detail, telling of people who are so vulnerable that they can be left to die because there are so many others to takes their place.

What I find truly interesting (in a morbid kind of way) about modern America is a kind of inverted greed. People in their selfishness steal from themselves. SUV's are an example of this. They are willing to trade economy for stature... the car is way too expensive, it burns up way too much gas and it's absurdly huge, making it an impractical car in any urban driving situation. The owner gets a merely a measure of vanity in trade for all these negatives.

The same is true of many other aspects of our economy. The cheap labor that produces expensive shoes is an excellent example. The third world workers are exploited, but so are the misguided people who buy, often for over a hundred dollars, a pair of shoes that cost pennies to make.

In the higher convolutions of our economy this leads to a schism that eventually must destruct, caving in upon itself. An example of this is real estate costs. People seem all confused about this: it is touted as wonderful that a house should cost a million dollars, that an apartment's 'fair market' value is many thousands of dollars a month. But the sad truth is that it makes the houses hard to sell, and makes it necessary for younger renters to gang up like chinamen to live in the overpriced apartments.

There are so many examples where this inverted greed has priced us out of a better future... from college tuitions to a music industry where only mega-billion hits are supported.

We are already paying in cultural decline, but so many haven't noticed it yet, I think. It may take a complete crash to restore sanity, and that will be hard medicine for a society like ours.

Sometimes greed are perpetrated by nations and not individuals. When the US wants the Asian countries to remove tariff on agriculture so that they can compete in that market while at the same time continues to subsidized their own farmer, I consider it greed. But who's greed was it really, was it the President, the senate, congress definitely not the American people.

Ricardo, You're being too generous of the American farmer. The big conglamerates have taken over most of the farming in this country, because the small farmers couldn't compete in the market place. I think it's a crying shame that the biggies are destroying the small farms of America.

truth
Yes, Ricardo, I do think that many Americans would be appalled to know how much others suffer so that we can enjoy our standard of living. But. C.I.'s pessimism is correct too. I suspect that if Americans did know exactly how and how much they have benefitted from, say, the operations of the United Fruit Company in Central America, MANY would somehow rationalize it in order to maintain the advantages we all gain from it.

Greed is inherently human, we will always go for the most at the best price. I think the question is, at which point are we willing to say, "The cost in human lives is too high?"

JLN said, "MANY would somehow rationalize it in order to maintain the advantages we all gain from it."

Beedlesquoink said....
"The same is true of many other aspects of our economy. The cheap labor that produces expensive shoes is an excellent example. The third world workers are exploited, but so are the misguided people who buy, often for over a hundred dollars, a pair of shoes that cost pennies to make."

There's nothing wrong with greed. Too many people confuse greed with stealing, or hurting, or depriving, or wasting. Greed is just the desire to accumulate things or pleasures for one's self. And too many people forget that one of the pleasures is the well-being of loved ones. When you do something to make someone else happy, because the fact that they are happy makes you happy, that is out of greed. We are all greedy. If we weren't, we would all be dead. Natural selection doesn't support creatures who have no desire to make themselves happy and healthy.

rufio, There's plenty wrong with greed. It depends on how one individual's greed harms others in their quest to satisfy their own selfish goals. Greed isn't necessarily all bad, but "good greed" is a small portion of all greeds.